Talon Zipper Dating….rabbit hole.

[Xopher]

I like old zippers. I think they are way cool and so I wanted to find out if there was an even more comprehensive and exact way to date talon zippers than the photo comparison I’ve seen posted here many times.

I recently noticed that on the bottom of the stopper box on my triple marked talon zippers, there are letters and numbers. Two digit serial numbers.

I contacted the fellow on Instagram who specializes in this stuff, and sent him this photo and he said my zipper was dated November 1940. Serial number 0L.

I sent him another photo and he said it was January 1940. Number A0

Both are triple marked talons on early Woolrich Jackets.

He wouldn’t tell me the codes to figure out the other months but I have some logical guesses, and if you all would send photos of Talon stopper boxes or have more information to share that would be splendid!

Here is my guess

January- A
February-B
March- C
April- D
May- E
June-F
July-G
August-H

( “I” is probably skipped due to looking like a 1)

September- J
October-K
November-L
December-M

I have a pair of redskin flight pants. Their stopper boxes are say M1 and H1. I’d assume that means August 1941 and December 1941. The pants are HLB Corps contract 1942

Do you all agree?

If you have triple marked talons, check them for me please because I’d this is a way to more accurately pinpoint garment dates that would be pretty darn awesome!

 

[Damon141]

Keep in mind, a zipper age tells you the zipper age, that’s it. So I wouldn’t get crazy about it unless you are worried about the zipper and zipper alone.

Companies probably buy zippers by the quantity so it’s safe to assume some have the same zips for years or even decades, even their suppliers that get them from the manufacturer could have cases for longer.
Garment manufacturers would potentially use different sizes and styles for different kinds of garments so you could imagine they could pull boxes of old zippers they think would complement a new garment.

Some of these vintage jackets have 2 to 3 different brands of zippers on a single jacket, clearly using what they had around. It’s not like today where they have to contract a zipper manufacturer and have their logo or name imprinted.

So at best this is an estimate of a time period.


Every time I see this discussed, it makes me laugh kind of. There are still unused zippers from 50’s 60’s and up online for sale

 

[JMax]

Why laugh? Most folks here are not dating jackets solely with zippers. Not sure why you think that. And no one here is looking at a jacket’s zipper and saying that the jacket was made at 1153, Wednesday, 23 March 1947. As you say, a good estimate.

It’s a totality of circumstances-type thing and zippers can play a key role. And not just with dating the jacket. They are what the geniuses at the FBI call a clue, one of many a jacket provides.

 

[Damon141]

Not just here but vintage clothing sellers ask on various sites the age of a garment they intend to sell and replies are usually based on zipper age which they tell the OP the garment must be 50’s based on the zipper.

I’m sure it’s happened but never have I seen it mentioned that the zipper is of a certain period but could be newer depending on when they used the zipper.

I wasn’t laughing at the OP or meant offense in any way, but it’s not like garment designers throw out old zippers when a new decade starts. I was just curious why it’s never mentioned.

 

[Xopher]

Keep in mind, a zipper age tells you the zipper age, that’s it. So I wouldn’t get crazy about it unless you are worried about the zipper and zipper alone.

Companies probably buy zippers by the quantity so it’s safe to assume some have the same zips for years or even decades, even their suppliers that get them from the manufacturer could have cases for longer.
Garment manufacturers would potentially use different sizes and styles for different kinds of garments so you could imagine they could pull boxes of old zippers they think would complement a new garment.

Some of these vintage jackets have 2 to 3 different brands of zippers on a single jacket, clearly using what they had around. It’s not like today where they have to contract a zipper manufacturer and have their logo or name imprinted.

So at best this is an estimate of a time period.


Every time I see this discussed, it makes me laugh kind of. There are still unused zippers from 50’s 60’s and up online for sale

In my case my Woolrich jacket I was convinced was 1937-1938 judging by the style and label details. When looking at the zipper serial number and noting that it was not a replacement, the zipper serial number translated January 1940.

So in this situation I was able to pinpoint the year I dare say exactly with my knowledge of Woolrich Labels.

So while there is no guarantee one’s entire garment is as old as it’s original zipper, it can guarantee that the garment is not Older than the zipper.

This can be immensely useful when looking at garments for sale that are advertised 1930s, when it is in fact 1940s. This is a problem I see a lot on EBay.

I consider the zipper serial numbers to be immensely beneficial because it can give you an exact month and year of the oldest Possible date of your garment

 

[Damon141]

That’s why I mentioned it, because random sellers or dealers will use similar threads as tools to date their EBay items.
So yes experts like you that have experience and a multitude of jackets will know it’s just one clue but lurkers won’t.

I saw a woman ask on a vintage clothing site asking about a Beck jacket she had come across, every single reply was based on zippers and nobody even mentioned that there were 3 different brands of zippers or the fact the main one was replaced quite poorly.
The thread ended with her thinking it was a 1930’s based on one zipper in which the eBay seller was “tickled” in her own words because that was her favorite era.

It was an old thread and I was just lurking around but nobody mentioned zippers are often replaced, or these small makers might use whatever zippers they feel like using.
So this seller undoubtedly took it to EBay and listed the jacket as a 1930’s Beck 333

 

[Marc mndt]

This can be immensely useful when looking at garments for sale that are advertised 1930s, when it is in fact 1940s. This is a problem I see a lot on EBay.

What exactly is the problem then?

Either you like the jacket you see or you don't, right?

I've bought this early 50s horsehide Appalachian mc jacket that was listed as a 70s biker jacket. I'm not going to return it and say "hey you advertised it as 70s but it's older".

8 out of 10 vintage jacket listings are wrong about the details. Those that have all the details right are usually not much of a deal because they're either listed by fellow collectors who are reluctant to sell or they're listed by vintage stores who know what they have in hand and need to make a good profit.

 

[Damon141]

I would imagine most sellers do their best to date their goods but in the end it is up to us to confirm as buyers.

I confirm that Appalachian is a nice jacket!

What stitching, so neat. Plus I notice it is purposefully closer to the edge on the smaller lapel and spaced a bit farther on the larger lapel.

 

[JMax]

What exactly is the problem then?

Either you like the jacket you see or you don't, right?

I've bought this early 50s horsehide Appalachian mc jacket that was listed as a 70s biker jacket. I'm not going to return it and say "hey you advertised it as 70s but it's older".

8 out of 10 vintage jacket listings are wrong about the details. Those that have all the details right are usually not much of a deal because they're either listed by fellow collectors who are reluctant to sell or they're listed by vintage stores who know what they have in hand and need to make a good profit.
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Put a 30s-era Talon, a 70s-era Talon or modern YKK on this and it still is obviously 50s jacket. The picture of the hide, lining and two labels is all one needs.

As an aside, the norm on vintage jackets is period correct zips or later replacement zips. I’ve yet to see a 40s zip on a 70s jacket.

 

[Xopher]

Why wouldn’t you want to know more accurately what you have?

It’s more in the interest of having more precise information, and it’s really exciting to know that you can get exact zipper dates.

If I go around believing and telling people the jacket I’m wearing is 1935 to 1937 when it’s not, and all I have to do is look at the zipper to know definitively that it’s cant be older than January of 1940….why wouldn’t I?

 

[Observe]

Wednesday, 23 March 1947.

I did some research and March 23, 1947 was a actually a Sunday! Happy to be of help.

 

[JMax]

I did some research and March 23, 1947 was a actually a Sunday! Happy to be of help.

Lol. I was too lazy. Thanks.

 

[Observe]

Lol. I was too lazy. Thanks.

Dating zippers is serious business...

 

[handymike]

Wow, so my zipper is Dec 1941?
Cool!

 

[Xopher]

Yessir!

 

[Peacoat]

I hesitate to bring this up, but I am confused.* Does the year come first or does the month come first?

In the first post you said:

"I contacted the fellow on Instagram who specializes in this stuff, and sent him this photo and he said my zipper was dated November 1940. Serial number 0L.

I sent him another photo and he said it was January 1940. Number A0"

In the first paragraph, shouldn't the nomenclature for the November 1940 zipper be L0? This would be consistent with placing the month first, followed by the year. But then this is my first foray into dating zippers by the code printed on them, so I may not be seeing the big picture.

–––––
* My wife says I am frequently confused.

 

[Damon141]

Is it just Talon that has serial numbers?

Is it just main or separating zippers or will non separating and pocket zippers have serial numbers also?

Did they stop using serial numbers at a point?

I’ve gone a bit zipper crazy lately myself

 

[Xopher]

I hesitate to bring this up, but I am confused.* Does the year come first or does the month come first?

In the first post you said:

"I contacted the fellow on Instagram who specializes in this stuff, and sent him this photo and he said my zipper was dated November 1940. Serial number 0L.

I sent him another photo and he said it was January 1940. Number A0"

In the first paragraph, shouldn't the nomenclature for the November 1940 zipper be L0? This would be consistent with placing the month first, followed by the year. But then this is my first foray into dating zippers by the code printed on them, so I may not be seeing the big picture.

–––––
* My wife says I am frequently confused.

I believe it is supposed to be Letter then Number. I think my zipper where it was reversed was an accidental misstamp. All of the other examples I have seen have had the letter first

 

[Xopher]

Is it just Talon that has serial numbers?

Is it just main or separating zippers or will non separating and pocket zippers have serial numbers also?

Did they stop using serial numbers at a point?

I’ve gone a bit zipper crazy lately myself

View attachment 479131 View attachment 479130 View attachment 479129 View attachment 479134 View attachment 479135

I believe it is only on triple marked separating talon zippers. I have only seen the serial numbers on the stopper box, not sliders. It could be on others too, I have just not seen it yet.

Also I don’t know the last year that Talon put their name on the stopper box of this style zipper but I suspect it to be around 1942. At some point they just left it blank.

I don’t know the first year of this year exact stopper box either. I have see 1939 for sure.

My guess is they spanned 1939-1942 but if anyone has more information I’d love to know.

 

[Damon141]

These hookless talon are older but those appear to be patent numbers on those. Strange they would do serial numbers for basically one style of zipper then they seem to have gave up altogether.