Summer lids

[barrowjh]

Weave Count

The question was asked, but I did not see it answered, about whether or not the higher weave counts are worth it. It is a trade-off - as you go higher in the weave-per-square-inch (wpsi) you are buying more of a work of art - the hats really are more beautiful. However, keeping the brim looking right can be a downright frustrating task, as the finer weaves just do not have the strength of the lesser wpsi hats (thicker straw). You might do well to stick with the 400-600 wpsi range, a plenty nice looking hat, and not such a high-maintenance hassle.

 

[Panamabob]

I think the "common man" will soon be priced out of the higher weave counts. My wife spoke with Don A. last night, and another vendor in Montecristi. It seems that some Hawaiian dude (not gentleman) has his armed "missionaries" out paying for every fine hat in the villages. These hats are just in the stages of having the rosetta woven and they're already paid for (a princely sum for each). Don A. said that Hawaii is highly overpaying for each hat and that he and the other locals in his village and in the town of Montecristi can't even buy enough hats anymore to sustain themselves. They're sick with worry. They worry for their future, their children's future, and for the quality of a hat that has been paid for before even being seen. What kind of care will the weaver take when he knows that the hat is already paid for? You'd have to put yourselves into the cultural context to answer that one.

The self proclaimed saviour is at it again. Figuratively killing the people and literally killing the industry. Congratulations Mr. Hawaii! You are the "gobernador de Pile, Montecristi, and Manabi". You own the place. You're the king of the Monopoly. Enjoy raising your prices even more.

I heard that they can't wait for you (him, it) to step foot back into Ecuador and many dozens of people want to give him a piece of their mind. They may just have a Happy Thanksgiving this year.

 

[Chinaski]

Bob, it's still supply and demand isn't it? If Mr. Hawaii is paying too much for Montecristis, then presumably he will charge a higher price to the final consumer who will either accept that price or not. If not, he will have to lower his price to move inventory, or at worst case, lower so far he'll take a loss.

I fail to see how these Hawaiian buyers paying a higher price is a detriment to the weavers. I understand maybe less will be sold if Mr. Hawaii has to charge so much to recoup his investment that volume decreases substantially. What am I missing?

 

[Aureliano]

I think the "common man" will soon be priced out of the higher weave counts. My wife spoke with Don A. last night, and another vendor in Montecristi. It seems that some Hawaiian dude (not gentleman) has his armed "missionaries" out paying for every fine hat in the villages. These hats are just in the stages of having the rosetta woven and they're already paid for (a princely sum for each). Don A. said that Hawaii is highly overpaying for each hat and that he and the other locals in his village and in the town of Montecristi can't even buy enough hats anymore to sustain themselves. They're sick with worry. They worry for their future, their children's future, and for the quality of a hat that has been paid for before even being seen. What kind of care will the weaver take when he knows that the hat is already paid for? You'd have to put yourselves into the cultural context to answer that one.

The self proclaimed saviour is at it again. Figuratively killing the people and literally killing the industry. Congratulations Mr. Hawaii! You are the "gobernador de Pile, Montecristi, and Manabi". You own the place. You're the king of the Monopoly. Enjoy raising your prices even more.

I heard that they can't wait for you (him, it) to step foot back into Ecuador and many dozens of people want to give him a piece of their mind. They may just have a Happy Thanksgiving this year.

First of all I want to say that I don't know, nor endorse, nor own any hats from either Mr. Black or Mr. Weber.
I want to say, agreeing with Chinaski, that the principle of business is supply and demand. I know, from being a born Ecuadorian and having family in San Vicente--right near montecristi and pile-- that the story might not be exactly as Mr Weber tells it. Is Mr. Black buying most, if not all, the high end, top of the line in manufacture hats? yes. True. But my question is: if you had the money wouldn't you do so too,wouldn't you try to comission the best and buy the best? From what I know, and from being an Ecuadorian--hence putting myself in the cultural context as Mr. Weber suggests--I know how my society works. Having lived in Argentina, and by having family there (and in Venezuela and a few relatives in Chile) I know how South America works. In Ecuador, Quito, Guayaquil, Santiago, Caracas; you name it, craftsmen and artisans are going to sell whatever they make to whomever pays the most. People may think that indigenous people, over there, are dumb or are being taken full advantage of. Perhaps they are in the same way the whole continent has been since the time of the colonization. But they are not dumb when it comes to getting money for what they make. Trust me, if you look white, blue eyes or simply if you sound American, you are going to pay more than say, me. A local. What people, because of political climate and idiosincracy, want in my country (at all levels of culture and education) is easy money. Easy success.
The craftsmen may complain to one person and then turn their back and complain about the other one as well. One has to be very careful and impartial when dealing with them.

My point is, and I've made it before when Mr. Weber rants about its competitor (calling a person "it"?... really?), not realizing how detrimental this posture is to how people may see him and his business, is that, in my opinion, it is so wrong to speak ill about others to make your own business look better. I want to think: if the situation were the other way around and Mr. Weber had similar economic means as Mr. Black, what would be his posture? what would be the colour of his post here in regard to this subject?

I know and are very good friends with another dealer, here in new york (I can provide name upon request), that buys hats from montecristi/pile and knows about Mr. Black. I asked this other dealer about this issue some time ago, when a similar comment was posted here by Mr. Weber, and he was never as bitter and offensive towards him or Mr. Black.

I just dislike all this thing, and the position, in my opinion, of victim that Mr. Weber always seems to take. Again I DO NOT own hats from either, I own a fine montecristi that belonged to my father. I couldn't afford one of Mr. Black and wouldn't buy one from Mr. Weber. I know, from what people say here, that his--Mr. Weber-- service is terrific and his hats are great and that is awesome and I honestly believe it. Is just his attitude that ticks something in me and forces me to open my mouth.

 

[Panamabob]

I'd certainly not argue that it is supply and demand and to the richer man goes the better hats. That has been true for centuries. What has not happened, up until recently, is that the richer man has not bypassed the protocol of buying. The weavers will be making more money, yes, but a whole group of people are being cut out of the middle...those who weave, resell for weavers, or who are too old to weave and resell.

Aureliano, you'll have to forgive me, but I've lived in Ecuador, too. Looking at it from the patron perspective is one thing, but were you ever the poor villager in Ecuador or were you or your family "the boss"? Your attitude of Ecuador reminds me of the high middle class to upper class, not the people I knew and worked with, but my bosses in Ecuador.

Have Orlando ask some of the old guys in Pile about the situation.

Also, there is an Ecuadorian in Hawaii selling hats and he's very appalled by the situation. I'll forward his phone number via pm if you'd like.

If I had more economic means, yes, my tone would be the same. I don't get rich off of poor costenos.

Forgive me, Chinaski, for finding something wrong with trying to hoard the market. When I lived in Ecuador, I saw large tracts of land owned by Dole, other industries dominated by Kimberly-Clark, and Chevron. I was kind of hoping that the Montecristi industry wouldn't be monopolized by an American. Yes, I'm all for the weavers receiving a more fair share. I guess I should be happy. If I can't get Montecristi hats, I'll just focus more on Cuenca.

Hopefully, these two guys in Ecuador were just stretching the truth a bit....not uncommon.

 

[Panamabob]

I've been humbled again:

I found this on a friend's site, in a conversation he had with a dearly departed member of this site:

"Walt/Sergei gave me a piece of advice back in the Spring of 2004 when I was on a one man crusade against a bad hatter who had really done the community wrong. Sergei asked me if that's how I wanted to be remembered: As the guy who really hated and had a vendetta against another. He warned me not to make my ranting about that idiot over-shadow his misdeeds. Since then, there are times when I have been tempted to just go for someone's jugular vein and those words come back as if he just sent them to me via a private message that morning." Ren

http://thefedorachronicles.com/rants/2009/01_16_celebrate_life.html

I'll try to continue biting my tongue. May the Montecristi industry survive.

 

[Scotus]

I bought this straw Homburg this past Thursday in Chicago. It's a Bailey. They also had a Hobbs in the same style, but this one fit slightly better.

 

[Aureliano]

Aureliano, you'll have to forgive me, but I've lived in Ecuador, too. Looking at it from the patron perspective is one thing, but were you ever the poor villager in Ecuador or were you or your family "the boss"? Your attitude of Ecuador reminds me of the high middle class to upper class, not the people I knew and worked with, but my bosses in Ecuador.

A lot of things can be done for the weavers from people like you, consumers like us and politicians too. My attitude may sound as that one of an upper-middle class position. Yes, for 9 years (my first 9 years of childhood) we were the patrons, the bosses the folks with position and money. Then, when I turned 10 my father left us and all that position and BS. went down the gutter. I lived in a humble neighborhood, moved from a huge house with maids and gardener to an apartment the size of a matchbox. Had to work at that age painting buildings, carrying construction materials, washing old car engines to help my house's economy. I went from being rich to having to make a loaf of hard-as-rock bread last over a week since that, bread and coffee, was sometimes breakfast, lunch and dinner. Now I'm here, USA. Came by my own means when crisis at home and mother's health couldn't wait anymore. Mother (and father for that matter) both died 2 years and 3 years ago respectively. I've been in both sides of the coin. I experienced the way people treat you when you are boss and patron and then had to experience being under the sole and, figuratively speaking, the whip and sole of contractors and bosses. Am I middle class now? Yes. And have sweated bullets to get the education that has put me where I am. This experience has only given me a broad perspective not only about myself and my life but about poverty and need in my country and how it only takes will, desire and hard work to make things better. I published a book about my childhood that gives faith of all this.
Now please, let's go back to the subject of the thread.

 

[Panamabob]

I'd love to read the book.

 

[Mickey D]

Just an old Straw from a garage sale

Somehow I feel there should be a floppy eared howlin' dog in this picture.

 

[jimmy the lid]

It's none of my business, but those featherweights are among the cheapest hats in Ecuador.

You're right. It is none of your business. It is, however, the business of David Morgan, whose sales you apparently seek to undermine with that comment. Why you think it is appropriate to take potshots like this that only serve to undermine the sales of another vendor is beyond me. I know of no other Vendor on the Lounge who behaves in this way. In my view, this kind of conduct shouldn't be tolerated here. Please stop.

 

[Aureliano]

You're right. It is none of your business. It is, however, the business of David Morgan, whose sales you apparently seek to undermine with that comment. Why you think it is appropriate to take potshots like this that only serve to undermine the sales of another vendor is beyond me. I know of no other Vendor on the Lounge who behaves in this way. In my view, this kind of conduct shouldn't be tolerated here. Please stop.

I agree with you, Jimmy. It needs to end.

 

[Panamabob]

It's not a potshot, it's the truth. I should leave, I suppose. Should have gone a long time ago. I'll refrain from posting about anything to do with Panamas that could be misconstrued.

 

[Aureliano]

It's not a potshot, it's the truth. I should leave, I suppose. Should have gone a long time ago. I'll refrain from posting about anything to do with Panamas that could be misconstrued.

No need to leave. Just to respect other people's businesses, stop undermining others so you can look better (according to you) and be more ethical.
Very easy. If you cannot achieve this, then by all means you should consider leaving.

 

[Aerol]

Aureliano & JtL.... I agree with you!

 

[Panamabob]

Yes, I know you don't understand me. I've said it before and this is the last. I don't want fellow members to pay too much. Believe me or not, that's what I say.

 

[jimmy the lid]

It's not a potshot, it's the truth. I should leave, I suppose. Should have gone a long time ago. I'll refrain from posting about anything to do with Panamas that could be misconstrued.

In typical fashion, by noting that it's "the truth", you avoid the real point of my post. And, more importantly, you avoid taking responsibility for your own conduct.

I agree with everything that Aureliano has eloquently stated on this page.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again -- it is unfortunate that the members of this Forum simply cannot seem to have any discussion of Panama hats without you interjecting negative vitriol about your competitors. I understand that you have a point of view -- but that doesn't entitle you to slag everyone else under the sun who is in the business of selling these hats.

You seem to have a lot of positive things to contribute. Why not confine yourself to that kind of participation?

In any event, I am not a Bartender here, and I have no control over what people are allowed to say here. I do, however, have control over my purchasing decisions. So long as you continue to conduct yourself in what I consider to be an utterly unprofessional manner, I will certainly not be buying one of your hats.

 

[Aureliano]

Yes, I know you don't understand me. I've said it before and this is the last. I don't want fellow members to pay too much. Believe me or not, that's what I say.

Victim, again. I'm out of here before I end up pulling my hair.
You are MISSING the point!

 

[Aureliano]

To respond to your private message, Mr. Weber, my book is published and sold in a handful of places. Your collection of ecuadorian books is going to have to suffer the lack of mine. Just as I refuse to buy your product, I won't sell you a copy of my book for all the money in the world.

 

[Panamabob]

I said I'd refrain from telling the truth about these hats and offering opinions, and I will.

I'll show you some things in Monteagle.