Suit Quality Assistance?

[Guttersnipe]

Well, according to the article, RTW suit makers make NO attempt to match patterns, but use all of the fabric(including cutoffs and bits and pieces, of course, making pattern matching impossible). Upper middle and higher end( with bespoke being the highest) makers will "waste" alot of fabric making sure the patterns line up(expensive, but surely a minimum for a suit). IMO, in order for a bespoke suit to truly be a bespoke suit, a master tailor should be able to pull that off.

Several points.

First, you cannot blindly accept that an article written in the late '40s could possible speak accurately and informatively about the RTW practices of the 21st century. You must use some critical thinking.

In context, ready-to-wear / off-the-rack men's wear largely supplanted made-to-measure / bespoke men's wear by the 1960s. As such, the modern men's wear market has a very different character than it did in times past. For example, I own a blazer made by Oxxford, which is by far a much higher quality garment than the bespoke suits I have made by a transplanted Hong Kong tailor in San Francisco.

You see, before the 1950s or so, the majority of ready made suits and sport coats were aimed at economical, price conscious consumers. In today's fast paced world, lots of men don't have the patience for custom tailoring, hence the rise in very well made, high end ready-to-wear suits and sport coats.

Second, before forming an opinion about what constitutes a "truly bespoke" suit, you should probably do a bit more research. The generally accepted definition of a bespoke suit is that (a) the cutter* (not a "master tailor") drafts a unique pattern, from scratch, based on the measurements of the customer, and (b) one or more fitting occurs before the suit is finished.

* a point about terminology: a "master tailor" is a tailor that employs other tailors (i.e., a business owner/proprietor); a "cutter" is tailor trained in pattern drafting. Many master tailors are also cutters, but not necessarily, and the two terms mean different things. The term master tailor does not necessarily imply a certain level of skill.

 

[Tomasso]

IMO, in order for a bespoke suit to truly be a bespoke suit, a master tailor should be able to pull that off.

http://www.englishcut.com/archives/000141.html

 

[Baron Kurtz]

^ Exactly.

tbh, I've never understood the obsession with pattern matching at the shoulder seams and sleeve heads. I do like matching on the pocket flaps etc, though. What I like most is the idea that the use of fabric has been maximised. I hate waste. Since the pocket flaps are easily drafted in the gaps between bigger panels, they're not difficult to match without wasting, and indeed slotting them in helps to reduce waste.

If you look at recommended lays for the RTW trade in the 30s etc. you'll find that (assuming a patterned cloth) the panels are laid out to match at the jacket rear seam, arm outseam, long leg seams, etc.

p.s. to whoever is thinking about it. You can undoubtedly get a bespoke suit for less than you'll need to get a RTW or MTM suit that will meet all the pattern matching criteria demanded above. Good bespoke does not cost Savile row prices!

 

[Guttersnipe]

cchgn, by all means read the article A.C. linked. Here is a choice snippet, written by a highly regarded Savile Row trained tailor you might be surprised to read:

"Over the years, I've had to constantly wrestle with customers to educate them that if you're tailoring a hand-made coat properly, it's practically impossible to match the stripes through the shoulder seam, if you still want it to fit properly.

And I already know that I'll receive numerous e-mails and comments from Ready-To-Wear and Made-To-Measure customers alike, arguing the very opposite."

The whole point of paying for a bespoke suit is to get a garment that fits you perfectly . . .

 

[Guttersnipe]

p.s. to whoever is thinking about it. You can undoubtedly get a bespoke suit for less than you'll need to get a RTW or MTM suit that will meet all the pattern matching criteria demanded above. Good bespoke does not cost Savile row prices!

Yep. My guy in San Francisco's Chinatown (not known for being a cheap city BTW) charges $700 for the labor on a 2-piece bespoke suit. Add to that the cost (including shipping from the U.K.) for 2.5 meters of cloth from Harrison's and California sales tax, and my out-the-door cost for my last bespoke suit was $875.87, exactly.

Just for giggles, here is a Google Images example of the pattern matching the tailor I go to achieves. Mr. Lee is not big on trying to match patterns at the sleeve heads or shoulder seams because he likes his suits to actually fit the customer properly. He does, however, always match patterns along the back seam, pockets, and where the lapels meet the collar. Also note how he matches the dart so that two pinstripes merge into one? Nice!

 

[carldelo]

The fact that you can find a high quality suit in a thrift store is irrelevant to the discussion. There's a thrift store in my neighborhood that periodically has racks of beautiful, sometimes unworn suits, jackets and ties from the local movie studio. I bought an unworn Armani jacket for a friend for $15, it still had its original tag for $1295. I found a $12 cashmere sport jacket that was custom fit to Carroll O'Connor and had his name inside. But that has nothing to do with the price anyone should expect to pay for new RTW vs. a custom bespoke suit. The fact that the thrift store suits fit you is nice, but it is truly not relevant.

Baron Kurtz' statement was clear - it meant what he says it meant, you misinterpreted it. To lecture him on the nature of thrift stores is condescending in the extreme, and you appear to be entering troll territory. I'm in complete agreement with A.C. on this.

 

[Dinerman]

Everyone needs to calm down.
There's no need to be so difficult. There's also no need to egg anyone on or call names.

I'll re-open this thread tomorrow once I edit out all this nonsense and get things back on track.

 

[cchgn]

I'd just like to say that way back, early on, I said that I wasn't talking about bespoke suits, as I acknowledge that that is the ultimate in quality and I'll likely never invest in one. In my mind, that was the end about bespoke suits.

What I'm talking about is ALL the other suits. If all suits were on a graph, what would it be? 30% cheap suits, 10% bespoke on the other end and 60% everything else, in the middle. I'm talking about that 60% everything else. I know there's a wide range of quality even within that 60% range.



I'd like to offer some links on ID higher end( of the middle) suits,,,,,

The difference between a $99 suit and $5000,,,http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012...een-a-99-suit-and-a-5-000-suit-in-one-graphic

How to tell a Quality Suit by Matchelli,,,,http://www.themitchelli.com/2012/01/how-to-tell-quality-in-suits/

The best description I've seen or heard:"Traditionally, suits are constructed by creating an inner frame work made from horse hair or a combination of wool/mohair called a canvas, the outer fabric is then attached to it by hand stitching. The canvas was there to provide structure to the coat, and so is made from a much stiffer fabric. Over time the stiffer canvas moulds to your shape providing a perfect fit, this allows the exterior panels to hang naturally."


This is the description that I imagine a bespoke suit being rigid enough to hold itself up.


Btw, These folks say fused or "floating" panels is the sign of quality, as well as working sleeve buttons.




Next, How to Buy a Suit, by Boston Magazine,,,http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2007/04/the-breakdown-how-to-buy-a-suit/

Where they also agree that sewn or fused ( of the panels) is the big difference.



The link that was given before( from 1940's) they said that more regulation is in order, that garment makers need to attach more info on their suits to tell what the inner panels are made of and are they were preshrunk, etc. to give a better disclosure of quality. I agree.

 

[Nick D]

...the sign of quality, as well as working sleeve buttons.

Red herring these days, just like a slanted breast pocket. An extra step on the machine. I've had a lot of jackets with working cuffs, all they've ever been is a pain and I've never unbuttoned them.

 

[cchgn]

Red herring these days, just like a slanted breast pocket. An extra step on the machine. I've had a lot of jackets with working cuffs, all they've ever been is a pain and I've never unbuttoned them.

Yes, alas, Mitchelli says it best: " As you can see, most of the traditional tell tale signs of quality are now being factory reproduced. It is getting increasingly difficult to tell from afar the quality of a suit. There are things you can look for, but many of these can now be copied. Only when you are able to close examine a suit and check the details up close will you be absolutely sure of the quality of a suit."

This is why I've decided to look for quality suits that I like, that fit and then put the details on that I like, like the working sleeve buttons. To me, fake buttons has always been as cheap and useless as, well, fake pockets. That must be why I don't like DB suits, either.

 

[Tomasso]

Bespoke is a method used to achieve a superior fitting garment; it does not indicate the quality of materials or workmanship used in the creation of the garment. It can be entirely handmade of the finest cloth or entirely machine made of substandard cloth or somewhere in between. Bespoke runs the gamut in price and quality, just like RTW. There are RTW makers that produce garments that equal the very best bespoke, in materials, craftsmanship and price.

 

[cchgn]

Bespoke is a method used to achieve a superior fitting garment; it does not indicate the quality of materials or workmanship used in the creation of the garment. It can be entirely handmade of the finest cloth or entirely machine made of substandard cloth or somewhere in between. Bespoke runs the gamut in price and quality, just like RTW. There are RTW makers that produce garments that equal the very best bespoke, in materials, craftsmanship and price.

Wow, ALL the research I've looked at says just the opposite. Bespoke is actually a word that has a definition, meaning made to order. From what I can find, there's bespoke, where measurements are taken and the suit is built from scratch, with the finest of materials. Then there's "made to fit" , where they have a pattern, but alter it to your measurements and use less fine materials and the RTW, where general blank patterns are used and the cheapest materials are used. There's a world of differecne between a RTW and a bespoke.

I'd agree that there are areas where qualities overlaps and there's not much difference between a lower bespoke and a higher made to fit or a lower made to fit and a higher RTW. Most experts can't tell a $1000 suit from a $5000 suit, but definitely can from a $300 suit and $1000 suit.