Stop for Nazi posts?

[Tango Yankee]

@TangoYankee: Yes, we killed civilians. That has been a feature of war ever since there was such a thing.

Yes, it is. I bring it up in response to your statement about the Germans killing civilians. WWII was total war. We bombed the cities with their civilians for a number of then-legitimate reasons.

Re: The Wehrmacht- I suggest you do some research on the history of Wehrmacht atrocities. All branches of the German war machine were NAZI-fied. I'm not so sure that you know what you're talking about. What's the source of my loathing of NAZIs and the people who love them?

How about a love for human decency and justice? An abiding respect for the truth? Good enough?

And your position is that anyone who doesn't agree with your way of thinking doesn't have a love for human decency and justice or an abiding respect for the truth? No, not good enough.

Yes, there were atrocities commited. No one has argued otherwise. Yes, there were committed Nazis in German army units. Where we disagree is that you insist that every member of the German military of the time is a criminal. You might as well go the next obvious step and declare every citizen of Germany of the time, every man, woman, and child, regardless of ethic origins or religion, a criminal. After all, they put Hitler in power or at the very least allowed it to happen--they're as guilty as Hitler himself!

As far as insulting people goes, well, all I have ever done here is to state opinions that have been well thought out and carefully considered. If I am hated for hating NAZIs and their fans, then I welcome their hatred. I will sleep well tonight.

So, you've carefully thought out and considered the opinion that anyone that collects WWII German army uniforms, etcetera or that disagrees with you that every member of the German military in WWII was a criminal is automatically a Nazi lover? I guess you will sleep well tonight, for ignorance is indeed bliss.

As for your last comment about WWII being ugly and unnecessary, well, that pretty much applies to all war, does it not?

Regards,
Tom

 

[Chas]

Your'e twisting my words. I cleary wrote that all Germans in WW2 in uniform were criminals in uniform. What they did (invading Poland) was wrong. How do you justify that? How do you as a sane, rational person, come to the conclusion that they were only acting in self defence?

Of course, there were plenty of civilians who committed criminal acts and were willing and even enthusiastic participants in the holocaust.

Tom, it's what Spitfire said so succinctly and clearly in the very first post in this thread that I am talking about.

it's what the uniform stands for. Every thinking, rational human being must take responsibility for their choices. The German people were not mindless automotons. They made a decision to hitch their wagon to the NAZI cart and they followed it. They now know that what they did was terrible, wrong and they apologized for it. What the Germans did was wrong, dude.

Collect whatever you want; wear it on the bus, reenact the SS, do whatever. Just don't be surprised, shocked and hurt that a lot of people find it offensive. People collect all sorts of stuff. Consider Serial Killer Trading Cards. Perfectly legal to own, but is it unreasonable for others to question your choice of hobbies?

If that seems really weird to someone who collects 3rd Reich swag, maybe they should find another hobby. Collect tea cups, milk bottle caps, anything.

Some wars are necessary; most (99%) are not. WW2 came about for entirely avoidable reasons, far too complicated to sum up in the FL.

 

[Tango Yankee]

Chas, to this day, all servicemen in this nation swear an oath. Mine, like the majority of the veterans here, went like this:

I, *state your name*, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I will obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, in accordance with regulations, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me, God.

My oath swears me to the Constitution (the government and nation), and to FOLLOW THE ORDERS of the officers appointed over me. The German soldier's oath to Hitler swore him to Hitler AND Germany. If you look at it from the soldier's perspective, he was swearing fealty to the nation and the government. Same as I did when I joined the Marine Corps. The fact that WITHOUT THE AVERAGE SOLDIER'S KNOWLEDGE the German government was ordering it's radical elements to commit atrocities has no bearing on the fact that most German soldiers were honorable, patriotic Germans who answered their country's call to arms. Grow up and learn to separate the true historical fact from the ideology, and the military aspect from the political.

Oh, and I am in no way affiliated with any German reenacting outfit, nor a collector of Wehrmacht militaria. I am simply a student of military history who appreciates a fellow warrior, regardless of his political affiliation.

Well said. I raised my right hand and said those words many times over a 25-year+ career. I did not always agree with the orders given by the CinC, but I followed them--and I'm a bit better informed than the average German enlistee in that era would have been.

Regards,
Tom

 

[AmateisGal]

Chas, come on now. Not once have I seen anyone on this forum profess Nazi sympathies.

My advisor in grad school was Jewish and he lost lots of family during the war. Yet he specializes in Holocaust Studies and Nazi Germany. Does that mean he's a Nazi sympathizer? Hardly!

In fact, my research into the German POWs at the Fort Robinson, Nebraska, POW camp show quite a difference between the Nazis soldiers and the ordinary German soldier. I have documented, primary source material from these German soldiers (they were part of Rommel's Afrika Korps) which plainly states that they did NOT hold true to Nazi ideology. I have diary entries, interviews, and many other documents that hold true to this assertion. In fact, at this camp, there was a group of German POWs who specifically created a group to re-educate many German soldiers about true democracy and not Hitler's maniacal ideology. I have documentary proof to back it up.

So you are absolutely, unequivocably wrong about all German soldiers being Nazis.

 

[StetsonHomburg]

Chas, come on now. Not once have I seen anyone on this forum profess Nazi sympathies.

My advisor in grad school was Jewish and he lost lots of family during the war. Yet he specializes in Holocaust Studies and Nazi Germany. Does that mean he's a Nazi sympathizer? Hardly!

In fact, my research into the German POWs at the Fort Robinson, Nebraska, POW camp show quite a difference between the Nazis soldiers and the ordinary German soldier. I have documented, primary source material from these German soldiers (they were part of Rommel's Afrika Korps) which plainly states that they did NOT hold true to Nazi ideology. I have diary entries, interviews, and many other documents that hold true to this assertion. In fact, at this camp, there was a group of German POWs who specifically created a group to re-educate many German soldiers about true democracy and not Hitler's maniacal ideology. I have documentary proof to back it up.

So you are absolutely, unequivocably wrong about all German soldiers being Nazis.

And Nazi is defined as: A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler.

 

[Chas]

I didn't say that every German soldier was a member of the NAZI party, which, clearly they weren't. Every person who served in the German armed services in WW2 was engaged in a war that was racially motivated, criminal in it's inception, prosecution and result. If that makes them criminals by association, so be it. While many did not sign on to exterminate the Jews, a great many felt that they were justified in invading Poland. How does anyone here distill that into an honorable act? Self defense?

 

[StetsonHomburg]

I didn't say that every German soldier was a member of the NAZI party, which, clearly they weren't. Every person who served in the German armed services in WW2 was engaged in a war that was racially motivated, criminal in it's inception, prosecution and result. If that makes them criminals by association, so be it. While many did not sign on to exterminate the Jews, a great many felt that they were justified in invading Poland. How does anyone here distill that into an honorable act?

That Doesn't mean they personally were racially motovated

 

[StetsonHomburg]

And this is the second definition: often nazi An adherent or advocate of policies characteristic of Nazism; a fascist. But did they all advocate the policies? No of course not!

 

[AmateisGal]

I didn't say that every German soldier was a member of the NAZI party, which, clearly they weren't. Every person who served in the German armed services in WW2 was engaged in a war that was racially motivated, criminal in it's inception, prosecution and result. If that makes them criminals by association, so be it. While many did not sign on to exterminate the Jews, a great many felt that they were justified in invading Poland. How does anyone here distill that into an honorable act?

By your reasoning, then, any Allied soldier whose unit/comrade/commander committed an atrocity and they were knowledgeable/and or unknowledgeable of it, they also were criminal by association.

If you go with such logic, every single soldier in World War II was a criminal. And I'm sorry, but I do not believe that.

And let me be perfectly clear - I am in no way saying the Nazis were honorable or that any of their despicable and horrific acts were honorable. I condemn Hitler and his Nazi thugs. They were responsible for millions upon million of lost lives and unbelievable grief and suffering.

But as a trained historian of the period, I know that it is imperative to look at the historiography (both sides of the conflict) and to ensure that your sources are correct. You cannot simply make a blanket judgment that flies in the face of documented, historical fact. I am willing to bet that if I were to contact my former advisor, who is a very well-respected historian, and posit the question to him of, "Were all German soldiers criminals?" he would be of the same mind as me: absolutely not.

Your blanket assumptions are, quite frankly, just that, and have no serious relevance on the historic study of this subject.

 

[Chris Dillon]

I have avoided getting wrapped up in such a heated argument but feel I must since I have been collecting Wehrmacht related items for a while now

I think to the outside viewer a "Third Reich Collection" sparks preconceived notions of Neo-Nazism, or some kind of support for Nazi ideology. It is my belief the mere sight of the Swastika conjures images of Hitler and the Holocaust, leading to quick condemnation of historical artifacts, or the pursuit there of. This is an image those of us in the TR (third reich) collecting community try very much to distance ourselves from.

I will quote a line from the film American Beauty, where a son comments on a piece of Third Reich Militaria in his fathers collection:

"...you would not believe it, there is a whole sub-culture of people who collect this Nazi sh*t."

When friends and family first viewed my collection, there was a mixed reaction. Some were taken aback and viewed the objects like one would do in a museum, most are very interested. One of my closest friends is of Jewish decent and he is CONSTANTLY asking me if I have purchased anything new.

For me this hobby stems from a life long interest in human Warfare, from the battle of Kadesh to modern conflicts. My main fascination is in the Third Reich, which began when I started learning more about my family, and the veterans there in. My decision to start collecting artifacts began when I was given relics by Veterans in my family. The thrill to a young man at the time so enamored with the study of War, to hold a real piece of history and wonder; Where? Who? How? It was exhilarating, and still is every time I acquire a new item.

While everyone may not share our enthusiasm or interest, I respect the fact that "Nazi" militaria can be a sensitive issue for some. So long as people do not brand those who are genuinely interested in History, and the pursuit of historical artifacts, with an un-educated brush neo-moron sect of racists that cling to that era like a barnacles on the underbelly of a Spanish galleon.

Hitler was a terrible human being who fooled his country into following him straight to the depths. Of the millions of Germans and Austrians alive during the TR period, the vast majority were never members of the Nazi party. The Nazis were a political organization (and, as it turns out from a previous thread, incorporated). To call everything produced or alive in Germany at that time with the Nazi label shows extreme ignorance of the history of that period.

What was done is inexcusable and should never be forgotten but hind-sight is 20/20. When you are pulled out of the depths of one of the greatest depressions in the history of the world by a leader that restored national pride and, in 6 years, gave everyone a job (albeit a lot of arms manufacturing) you can not condemn them for not questioning what they perceived as a god send. It was not til after the war that many atrocities came to light to the population and a VAST MAJORITY of the Wehrmacht AND the Waffen-SS.

I voted for Obama, if in the coming years it comes to light that he was secretly executing mass amounts of "terrorist" and "enemy combatants" or "enemies of the state" (all names used by the National Socialist government to justify executing Partisans and Resistance fighters along with Jews and Gypsies and so forth), that does NOT mean I know or supported the killing of said detainees.

I am now ranting nonsense.

Just know that I DO NOT IN ANYWAY SUPPORT ANY NS IDEALS AND HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THOSE THAT DO!! If I have offended anybody by posting my collection in the thread that was designated for the posting of such things, I apologize. I just hope people are able to contextualize things and realize that collectors WWII german militaria are NOT in ANYWAY supporters of any hate towards any person.

With the utmost respect and kindest regards
-Chris

 

[Chris Dillon]

As for the racially motivated german soldiers comment.

A little known fact to the average person is that there were VOLUNTEERS in both the SS and the W-Heer of black/african, indian, croatian, russian, arab, estonian, armenian, serbian, hungarian, french, british and so on and so on decent.
There were even black members of the Sturmabteilung, or SA, the early NS party bully boys in the 20's and 30's.

The comment of the Italians spitting on Il Duce's corpse. . . the german civilians were busy getting raped and killed by occupying russian forces at war's end.

 

[Neophyte]

Well said, AmateisGal. :eusa_clap

CHAS: "I'm sure that there are OTHER places for the NAZIphiles to hang out. It's been ticking me off for quite a while. To admire, emulate or otherwise identify with them is abhorrent behaviour, IMHO. The Germans of WW2 were criminals in uniform, not honorable warriors defending a just cause."


Chas, I don't necessarily disagree with you. OTOH, I believe what most of my fellow Loungers take offense at is this trend of identifying others as NAZIphiles. You obviously feel very strongly about this issue, and that's admirable. There is a difference, however, in a keen interest in the militaria of the German armed forces and the NAZI party--for whatever reason-- and being a NAZI sympathizer.

People collect what they collect. It is their right to express an interest in something, just as it is the right of others to disapprove and criticise them. While we could exercise this right and be at each other's throats, exemplified by the mess this thread has become, it is a lot wiser to just leave people alone.

You are free to express your opinion. Whether or not it is wise to do so, well...that's up to you.

...Oh yeah, and Chainsaw, everything I just said applies to you as well.

I'm only 19, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. As such, this will be my last post in this somewhat ridiculous thread.

 

[StetsonHomburg]

Well said, AmateisGal. :eusa_clap

Chas, I don't necessarily disagree with you. OTOH, I believe what most of my fellow Loungers take offense at is this trend of identifying others as NAZIphiles. You obviously feel very strongly about this issue, and that's admirable. There is a difference, however, in a keen interest in the militaria of the German armed forces and the NAZI party--for whatever reason-- and being a NAZI sympathizer.

People collect what they collect. It is their right to express an interest in something, just as it is the right of others to disapprove and criticise them. While we could exercise this right and be at each other's throats, exemplified by the mess this thread has become, it is a lot wiser to just leave people alone.

You are free to express your opinion. Whether or not it is wise to do so, well...that's up to you.

...Oh yeah, and Chainsaw, everything I just said applies to you as well.

I'm only 19, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. As such, this will be my last post in this somewhat ridiculous thread.

Well said, and age can't dictate what you are talking about, research does!

 

[Tango Yankee]

Tom, it's what Spitfire said so succinctly and clearly in the very first post in this thread that I am talking about.

it's what the uniform stands for. Every thinking, rational human being must take responsibility for their choices. The German people were not mindless automotons. They made a decision to hitch their wagon to the NAZI cart and they followed it. They now know that what they did was terrible, wrong and they apologized for it.

Collect whatever you want; wear it on the bus, reenact the SS, do whatever. Just don't be surprised, shocked and hurt that a lot of people find it offensive.

Personally, I collect fedoras and fountain pens.

Choices are made based upon the information made available to an individual at the time. If you have studied the history of Germany you will know that the build-up to genocide was a gradual one, and carefully orchestrated. I don't have time to do the research and provide all the details, but after WWI Germany was in poor shape and hobbled by the victors as to what they could and could not do. Hitler's Nazi party capitalized on this by giving the German people a scapegoat, and worked a thorough campaign to demonize the Jews and anyone else who was "different". Once you have done this it's easy enough to take the next step, and the next. We've seen it time and time again throughout history. It's happening now, in fact. And why didn't anyone who knew what was going on (and hadn't bought into the propaganda) speak out or try to stop what was going on? In a word, fear.

But the attack of Germany's neighbors didn't have anything to do with that. All war at the very core is about land and resources. Hitler didn't invade Poland or France because he wanted to kill Jews. He wanted their resources. For that, he used his military.

You seem to think that the German military was an all-volunteer force, like many of the militaries of today--that they had a choice. While yes, some enlisted on their own, many did not. But I doubt that many of them served to commit genocide. They served out of love of country or sense of duty, as do many military members. Or they served because they had to. Many people in the US, including the many in the military, thought we shouldn't be in Viet Nam--but when they were drafted, or enlisted, and got orders to go, they went. (Yes, a few did avoid the draft one way or another, and some deserted--you could probably find examples in German army history as well.). They didn't want to go, but it was their duty to do so and so they went.

But now, of course, you're backtracking by saying it's what the uniform stands for. That has not been your position throughout this entire thread--your position has been that every member of the Germany military during WWII was a criminal. My position is that the majority of them were not. I stand by that position. You also take the position that anyone who collects German militaria from that era or who takes the position that not every German soldier was a criminal is a Nazi-lover--neither of which stands up to reasonable consideration.

Regards,
Tom

 

[AmateisGal]

I'd like to think that there are sooo many positive and proactive things about the 20s, 30's, 40's and 50's to discuss and learn about without paying attention to WW2. That war was ugly and unneccessary.

Ugly, yes. Unnecessary? Absolutely not. In fact, I would argue that it was absolutely crucial to fight this war.

 

[Vic]

My father – who fought the Nazis in the resistance during the occupation of our country – once said: ”I did not hate the single German soldier, how could I? But I hated everything the uniform stood for!”

Maybe it’s only me, but I am sad to see the way posts on nazi uniforms, generals etc. pop up in this forum.
I do not understand the fascination of the third reich and all what it stood for, and I am directly appalled by the many posts on this subject.
There are hundreds of other forums and websites dedicated to nazilovers and people with that bizarre interest, so why here?

As I said – I might only be me, who feels that way, and if everybody else find it both natural and OK, I might just as well leave.
Better leave than be in the company of Nazi sympathisers.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Tango Yankee]

Ugly, yes. Unnecessary? Absolutely not. In fact, I would argue that it was absolutely crucial to fight this war.

Ah, well... it depends upon where you start applying the necessary, doesn't it? Although from the German and Japanese points of view the war(s) may have been necessary, but was it really? Did they really need to invade their neighbors? From our (US) point of view it didn't become necessary until we were attacked. Of course, that would have happened sooner or later; it's just as well it happened when it did rather then with a German invasion on the east coast.

Actually, now that I think further on it, ALL wars are necessary--at least, in the eyes of those who start them. No one says to themselves that today we'll start an unnessary war with the folks next door. And then the war becomes necessary for those who were attacked, as it is necessary to respond in kind.

Regards,
Tom

 

[Neophyte]

Ah, well... it depends upon where you start applying the necessary, doesn't it? Although from the German and Japanese points of view the war(s) may have been necessary, but was it really? Did they really need to invade their neighbors? From our (US) point of view it didn't become necessary until we were attacked. Of course, that would have happened sooner or later; it's just as well it happened when it did rather then with a German invasion on the east coast.

Actually, now that I think further on it, ALL wars are necessary--at least, in the eyes of those who start them. No one says to themselves that today we'll start an unnessary war with the folks next door. And then the war becomes necessary for those who were attacked, as it is necessary to respond in kind.

Regards,
Tom

Well said! Hindsight is always 20-20.
...Shoot, it looks like I failed to stay out! lol. This debate is just too interesting.

 

[StetsonHomburg]

Ah, well... it depends upon where you start applying the necessary, doesn't it? Although from the German and Japanese points of view the war(s) may have been necessary, but was it really? Did they really need to invade their neighbors? From our (US) point of view it didn't become necessary until we were attacked. Of course, that would have happened sooner or later; it's just as well it happened when it did rather then with a German invasion on the east coast.

Actually, now that I think further on it, ALL wars are necessary--at least, in the eyes of those who start them. No one says to themselves that today we'll start an unnessary war with the folks next door. And then the war becomes necessary for those who were attacked, as it is necessary to respond in kind.

Regards,
Tom

Off topic but when the war ended Churchill Met with Truman to discuss
the name of the war and Churchill wanted to call it the unecessary war
because in the pre-war time Churchill was known as a war monger and
warned everyone the threat of an invasion.

 

[W4ASZ]

A little story ...

I have been reading about the code-breaking work at Bletchley Park for years. I enjoy using radio receiving equipment of the type used by the allies for signal interception. I also have a handful of WW II radiotelegraph keys, one of which has the distinctive eagle and the letters "BAL" stamped in red on the lever. "BAL" stands for Bau Amt Luftwaffe. This is the only item of German war memorabilia I own. It is completely surrounded in the display case by British and American naval, army, and air ministry keys. They are keeping an eye on it.

But now it seems that I, too, must be watched.