Stetson crest dating

[Dinerman]

The stetson crest was redesigned at some point, it looks like around 1950, but I'm still looking to nail down exactly when.

Here's a side by side, older design on the left, newer design on the right.

-beaver has a different stance, more upright on the older design, more hunched on the newer

-The top left square on the old one has a field of dots (stars?) while the right one has a leaf.

- the curly bits under the crest extend beyond the banner on the older design, while on the newer, they end just about at the same point

I'm not going to really deal with the surround, as that seems to have changed on and off, and changed with model and the like.

And there are exceptions, and the design of the crest on the liner doesn't always seem to match the design on the sweatband. Depending on the level of detail of the stamping/ printing, you'll see different things as well.

The first hat dates around WWII, judging from a tag stating the liner's made from celanese yarn. The second hat dates from 1956 or before, going by 1956 dated newspapers under the sweatband.

..

....

And then there's this one which I've never seen a duplicate of, and which is entirely different

 

[carouselvic]

1935-WWII Sometime

The banner is different.

 

[Dinerman]

Right. Those two are the essentially the same as the first one, but the quality of the imprint is different.

Both have the different beaver posture from the newer one, the field of stars instead of the leaf, and the lower extending curly bits.
"American Manufacture" is found on the banner in yours on the sweatband imprint, and not the early design sweatband I posted, but that text is found on that hat's liner.

 

[carouselvic]

According to the Snyder Book, the factory store at the 1100 block of Chestnut was moved to the 1224 Chestnut St. location on Feb. 13, 1913.

 

[Lefty]

What about this one, on a hat that I should receive this week?

Here's the hat and logo:

Stetsonian's 1902 derby box has the same one.

Well it's finally happened.......a thread that made me get off my butt and dig my Stetson derby out of storage. I’ve been meaning to dig this little treasure out and share it with all of you for some time. It’s one of the few hats I have that I can date to a specific time frame thanks to its original box. And as you’ll see the box is as much of a treasure as the hat. The hat was shipped to Feineman Bros. of Rochester, New Hampshire directly from the Stetson factory. The box is a very heavy corrugated cardboard with a wax coating to protect it from water damage. On the upper right hand corner of the lid is the shipping label to Feineman Bros, which in its printed form says Rochester, New York. New York was then lined through and the correct state abbreviation of NH was then penciled in. In the center of the box lid is the style info label. The style #472508 matches the style label inside the hat. It states the depth of the hat as 5 ¼ and the brim as 2 1/8. It also states ‘self conf’, ‘Feineman Bros.’, ‘Style- Phila S14’, ‘Col. Blk B & E’ and NY. Lastly is the label in the lower left hand corner of the lid which says “Fragile-Do Not Crush” and has the postage of one 10 cent and one 2 cent stamps along with a postmark where the ‘02’ for 1902 is about the only legible part. That my friends make this wonderful derby 106 going on 107 years old! The great thing is that the hat looks like brand new, never worn! And it’s a size 7 ½ to boot! I got it around the end of 2001 off of OFAS and paid $78.00, which at the time I thought was a little steep until it arrived in that wonderful old box. The seller had included a picture of the box in the sale but didn’t elaborate on it much and it wasn’t until I had it in my hands that I realized what a treasure it was. Thanks for letting me share!

Jay

P.S. The best way to view the pictures is to go full screen and click on 'sideshow'

Here's what Marc had to say about the logo:

Sure thing. Below is the inside of the grey Stetson. The lining is silk satin. The Stetson logo on it was used from the 'teens into the mid-1920s.

The Stetson logo below on the sweatband was also used from the 'teens into the '20s.

 

[Garrett]

I was hoping you'd get that one, Lefty. Do you suppose the ribbon is original?

 

[jimmy the lid]

1952 Logo...

 

[jimmy the lid]

The crest shown on this Whippet liner is identical to the one on the liner of a Royal Deluxe Stetson that dates to 1948...

 

[Lefty]

I was hoping you'd get that one, Lefty. Do you suppose the ribbon is original?

Thanks. That was the first thought that popped into my head when I saw it. Given the dimensions and the cloth sweat, this hat throws me for every kind of loop. Aside from knowing that it's quite old, I've got nothing on this one.

 

[Dinerman]

I bet you it's not an original band.

 

[Lefty]

I bet you it's not an original band.

I certainly wouldn't take that bet.

Based on the above, both my 25 and CB seem to be pre-1950something. I was under the impression that they were 60s hats, but with the stars, the tall-standing beaver, and the flamboyant curly bits, I guess they're a bit older.
Edit: The beaver on the CB sweat has the more modern, hunched look, while the one on the liner has the older, tall look - one of those inconsistencies you mentioned.

 

[jimmy the lid]

Lefty -- that Stetson 25 may be one of the very early ones. Nice.

The printing on the size tag of the 7X (note the "Stetson" lettering) reminds me of the size tag on this 1948 Royal DeLuxe.

Incidentally, "flamboyant curly bits" are known as "FCBs" in the trade...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[ScottF]

The crest shown on this Whippet liner is identical to the one on the liner of a Royal Deluxe Stetson that dates to 1948...

jtl - looks like your 1948 hat has a hunchback beaver AND stars in the crest.

Here's another one - the owner died in 1951, so the hat is older than that. Maybe the transition from straightback beaver and stars to hunchback beaver and maple leaf was right around 1948?

 

[jimmy the lid]

Here is the box that came with my Royal Deluxe Stetson, purchased at the Stetson factory store at 1224 Chestnut Street in December 1948:

And here is the logo on the sweat from that lid:

Cheers,
JtL

 

[jimmy the lid]

jtl - looks like your 1948 hat has a hunchback beaver AND stars in the crest...

Maybe the transition from straightback beaver and stars to hunchback beaver and maple leaf was right around 1948?

I think that the change on the crest from stars to a leaf in the upper left-hand field is probablyl the most telling feature. I honestly don't think the "hunched beaver" factor is a reliable factor as far as dating goes. As you note, Scott, you can see that the "hunched beaver" is present with the "stars" crest in 1948. Similarly, the features of the bird on the right side of the crest are all over the map over time.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[ScottF]

I think that the change on the crest from stars to a leaf in the upper left-hand field is probablyl the most telling feature. I honestly don't think the "hunched beaver" factor is a reliable factor as far as dating goes. As you note, Scott, you can see that the "hunched beaver" is present with the "stars" crest in 1948. Similarly, the features of the bird on the right side of the crest are all over the map over time.

Cheers,
JtL

Yeah, I know - I just wanted an excuse to say 'hunchback beaver'.

 

[Lefty]

Here's more information as to what's on my fuzzy's crest, though I'm still looking into the dates that it was used by Stetson.
click 1
click 2


from click 1

J.C. Chaplain was a master of the art nouveau style of the times.

Jules-Clément Chaplain (1839-1909) - one of the most renown French medalist of the late 19th century, his career can be described as emblemic of the "Golden Age" of Medallic Art.

He first studied sculpting and engraving at the Ecole des Beaux-Arts in Paris under such masters as Jouffroy and Oudiné. In 1863 he won the Grand Prix de Rome, allowing him to study as a resident of Villa Medici in Rome from 1864-1868.

Chaplain returned to Paris in 1869 where he found official success almost immediately, winning notice in the Salons of 1870 and 1872. In rapid succession, Chaplain was named in 1877 the official medalist of the French Government, in 1878 a Chevalier of the Legion d'Honneur, and in 1881 to the seat at the Académie des Beaux Arts left vacant by the death of Jacques-Edouard Gatteaux.

He was responsible for the official portraits of every president of the French Republic from Patrice Mac-Mahon in 1877 to Émile Loubet in 1899.

Chaplain also received the commission for engraving the gold coinage of France at the urging of Claude Roger-Marx. He also engraved commemorative and official prize medals for the Paris Exposition Universelles of 1867, 1878, 1889 and 1900.
The Exposition Universelle of 1900 was a world's fair held in Paris, France, to celebrate the achievements of the past century and to accelerate development into the next.

More than 5 million people attended the exhibition (a world record at the time), yet it still failed to turn a profit, costing the French government 2,000,000 Francs. The fair included more than 76,000 exhibitors and covered 1.12 square kilometres of Paris.

The Exposition Universelle was where motion pictures were first unveiled and where the escalator debuted.

The exhibition lasted from 14 April until 10 November 1900. A special committee, led by Gustave Eiffel, awarded a gold medal to Lavr Proskuryakov's project for the Yenisei Bridge in Krasnoyarsk.

A number of Paris' most noted structures were built for the Exposition including the Gare de Lyon, the Gare d'Orsay (now the Musée d'Orsay), the Pont Alexandre III, the Grand Palais, La Ruche, and the Petit Palais.

A sideshow at the Exposition was the Second Olympic Games, which were spread over five months. So unnoted were these games that many athletes died unaware that they had been Olympians. The games also marked the first participation by female athletes and, in such sports as tennis, football (soccer), polo, rowing and tug of war, teams were multinational.

A Human Zoo was present at the exposition.

from click 2
Obverse: Depicts the head of "France" in a Phrygian bonnet near a growing oak tree which has put a laurel wreath around her head. A view of the Paris skyline to the right.

Legend:: République Francaise.

Reverse: The winged figure of Victory, holding a laurel wreath and a palm branch and carrying a winner on her back.

The Expo buildings are shown below, with a plaque which says "E. J. L. Guesnier" who was the recipient of the medal.

Legend: Exposition Universelle Internationale - 1900 - J. C. Chaplain


About J.C. Chaplain

Jules-Clément Chaplain (1839-1909) - one of the most renown French medalist of the late 19th century, his career can be described as emblemic of the "Golden Age" of Medallic Art.

He first studied sculpting and engraving at the Ecole des Beaux-Arts in Paris under such masters as Jouffroy and Oudiné. In 1863 he won the Grand Prix de Rome, allowing him to study as a resident of Villa Medici in Rome from 1864-1868.

Chaplain returned to Paris in 1869 where he found official success almost immediately, winning notice in the Salons of 1870 and 1872. In rapid succession, Chaplain was named in 1877 the official medalist of the French Government, in 1878 a Chevalier of the Legion d'Honneur, and in 1881 to the seat at the Académie des Beaux Arts left vacant by the death of Jacques-Edouard Gatteaux.

He was responsible for the official portraits of every president of the French Republic from Patrice Mac-Mahon in 1877 to Émile Loubet in 1899.

Chaplain also received the commission for engraving the gold coinage of France at the urging of Claude Roger-Marx. He also engraved commemorative and official prize medals for the Paris Exposition Universelles of 1867, 1878, 1889 and 1900.

 

[Spats McGee]

I recently bought a vintage Stetson on ebay & got a request to post a picture of the crest on the box in this thread. I don't think I have anything here that isn't already in the thread, but here it is:

​

 

[rlk]

1964 7X CB Stetson Factory Store

One of the late ones, switched to black rectangular size tag. Unfortunately this black hat was HPG'd ,probably to be stylish the 60's and only has a raw 2-3/8" brim. Sorry the crown liner is so faded.

 

[jimmy the lid]

OK, rlk -- you are officially killin' me. The use of the term "HPG'd" as a verb is off the charts!!! lol lol lol

This is a great find though, because it confirms that, while Stetson was still alive and kicking, the black, square size tag was in use. Is there any way to get a shot of the liner logo without the flash? Also, any chance of a shot of the hat itself? Is the liner stitched-in?

Cheers,
JtL