Stetson 100-From Blah to Bling!

[fedoralover]

Well this thread has veered off course a bit but that's okay, it's an interesting discussion. I think it's hard to be dogmatic either way for just as today there are high end hats and low end, so too in vintage ones. So you can compare a high end Optimo with a low end vintage and your opinion will be swayed by what you see. But if you compare a modern Borsalino with a Vintage Borsalino you will obviously think all new fedora's are garbage. I have a vintage flyer put out by Borsalino that stated it aged it's felt 4 years before it was put out to sell in a hat. I seriously doubt any felt manufacturing company like Winchester or Hatco does that today, or even the one in Portugal.

fedoralover

 

[tonyb]

Mercury hasn't been used in American-made felt hats since what? 1938? And I'm at a loss to say what Winchester (for instance) can't or doesn't do in the manufacture of a beaver fur hat body that the major hat makers of yore could or did. If there's a fur or fur blend superior to 100 percent beaver, I'd like to see it. (Was the beaver fur better half a century and more ago? That's possible, I suppose. But I'm not prepared to argue the point either way.)

Leather sweatbands the equal and in many cases the better of anything I've seen in a vintage hat are available from certain suppliers these days. Same with liners.

Ribbon is the only component that no modern manufacturer of which I'm aware makes that rivals what was made before most of us here drew our first breaths.

I wouldn't dispute what is perhaps the larger point -- that the big manufacturers made so many hats back when just about everyone wore hats that sheer practice and repetition alone sharply honed their techniques. (The "million monkey theory" might well be referenced here. You know, give a million monkeys a million typewriters and in a million years they might produce The Complete Works of William Shakespeare.) And I do have a vintage factory-made hat or two around here -- a Cavanagh and a Disney come to mind -- that even the best custom makers would have real difficulty matching, not that some couldn't or wouldn't. I never wear either (neither fits), but I keep 'em around for inspiration. Practice, practice, practice.

As to today's factory-made hats versus the old ones ... only the delusional or someone with a financial stake in the matter would argue that the average new Stetson (say) is even close to the quality of the pre-'60s ones. Not all the new ones are all that bad, and not all the old ones were so special, but overall, there's very little comparison.

 

[rlk]

Can't really over generalize Borsalino felt of any era. Mid-20th century flyer has hats priced L 3,800-L 12,000 in a dozen finishes. These are more varied in type rather than varying in quality of workmanship. I would agree that given a similar classification, the modern hats would fall short of the standards of the earlier ones although up to early 80's there is little difference. If they made higher quality hats with greater expense, would they sell enough to equal profit? Obviously they've made their judgement and calculations as have other larger scale manufacturers.

Some modern customs compare favorably with any high end vintage. If the body sits on the shelf for a few years before being made into a hat its aging too. You could probably pre-pay some hatters and ask them to set some aside for later use and have a slightly denser and more dimensionally stable hat, but not magically transformed. All those hats of the last few decades that we disparage demonstrate the limited improvement effects of aging.

 

[alanfgag]

For those who might like to experiment for themselves, I've listed my Stetson 100 in the classifieds.

 

[tonyb]

For those who might like to experiment for themselves, I've listed my Stetson 100 in the classifieds.

Just in time for the holidays.

 

[alanfgag]

Yep... no bah homburg from me.

 

[mayserwegener]

Would disagree with most of the latter remarks. Very few of the vintage hat bodies were of the quality level of the best of today's custom hats. They were marketed for a price point multiples lower even if adjusted for inflation. There are high end special finishes that were the expensive finest examples of their day, but most were ordinary despite high general standards and the competitive market. The most recent Optimo felts which I am most familiar with, in many specialty finishes including satin and longhair will surpass the majority of vintage examples. They are clearly better than even early American examples. Comparing to the Finest Austrian Velours which were very refined and expensive in their day is more challenging. Even 40's and 100's are not objectively better from a material standpoint( uniformity, density, lack of any inconsistent fibers or colors, voids etc.) Finishing varies and becomes more difficult to objectively rate..

My point is hat and felt making know how. For example this light weight (115 gram) wool Melone (Bowler) was state of the art hat making in the early 1900s. The ability to make a high quality stiff felt hat a low price point required major investment (R&D, Engineering, Manufacturing).

 

[mayserwegener]

Mercury hasn't been used in American-made felt hats since what? 1938? And I'm at a loss to say what Winchester (for instance) can't or doesn't do in the manufacture of a beaver fur hat body that the major hat makers of yore could or did. If there's a fur or fur blend superior to 100 percent beaver, I'd like to see it. (Was the beaver fur better half a century and more ago? That's possible, I suppose. But I'm not prepared to argue the point either way.)

Leather sweatbands the equal and in many cases the better of anything I've seen in a vintage hat are available from certain suppliers these days. Same with liners.

Ribbon is the only component that no modern manufacturer of which I'm aware makes that rivals what was made before most of us here drew our first breaths.

I wouldn't dispute what is perhaps the larger point -- that the big manufacturers made so many hats back when just about everyone wore hats that sheer practice and repetition alone sharply honed their techniques. (The "million monkey theory" might well be referenced here. You know, give a million monkeys a million typewriters and in a million years they might produce The Complete Works of William Shakespeare.) And I do have a vintage factory-made hat or two around here -- a Cavanagh and a Disney come to mind -- that even the best custom makers would have real difficulty matching, not that some couldn't or wouldn't. I never wear either (neither fits), but I keep 'em around for inspiration. Practice, practice, practice.

As I mentioned the large hat companies had total control over the process. They developed special felt and hat making machinery (in house R&D) and processes (for example to make a top Austrian Velour finish could take 100+ steps). When they didn't have a specific knowledge they had to go to other hat companies (or hat machine companies) to aquire it. This is why you see Euro based specialized finishes being made by American hat companies in the 1930s (Euro companies started exporting the machinery to make them but there was still an experience / knowledge gap).

Also the pre WWII number of suppliers and quality of parts would be hard to match today. The major hat making countries (US, England, France, Germany, Italy, Austria) produced weekly trade journals full of felt and hat making suppliers (machines, components, hat bodies, finished hats, ect).

 

[DJH]

For those who might like to experiment for themselves, I've listed my Stetson 100 in the classifieds.

That hat is crying out for one of Tony's big ol' triple bows!!

 

[tonyb]

As I mentioned the large hat companies had total control over the process. They developed special felt and hat making machinery (in house R&D) and processes (for example to make a top Austrian Velour finish could take 100+ steps). When they didn't have a specific knowledge they had to go to other hat companies (or hat machine companies) to aquire it. This is why you see Euro based specialized finishes being made by American hat companies in the 1930s (Euro companies started exporting the machinery to make them but there was still an experience / knowledge gap).

Also the pre WWII number of suppliers and quality of parts would be hard to match today. The major hat making countries (US, England, France, Germany, Italy, Austria) produced weekly trade journals full of felt and hat making suppliers (machines, components, hat bodies, finished hats, ect).

I still fail to see how any of that necessarily results in a better hat than can be made by an experienced and conscientious custom hatter using the finest modern components (with the exception of ribbon, and several modern hatters are using NOS ribbon). Modern all-beaver bodies are the equal of the old ones, and the leather and liners are every bit as good.

I'll grant your point about finishes. There are tricks to it, for sure. It has taken lots of trial and error for me to produce what I can honestly say is a fine, suede-like finish. And I have yet to attempt velours, although a friend is now doing a quite satisfactory job of it and I'm confident it will only improve. The European makers of yore had that down pat, though. But we'll figure it out.

 

[mayserwegener]

I just see it differently so probably not worth going back and forth on something we will never agree on.

 

[bond]

Plus one. I think we can all agree its ok to disagree .

 

[hutch]

Fedoralover,
I think your re-worked hat looks outstanding! Very nice color combo. I for one believe a fedora, whether new, vintage, or re-worked, is no good unless you wear it.

 

[bowlerman]

a fedora, whether new, vintage, or re-worked, is no good unless you wear it.

+1!

Now if all you modern hatters can figure out an aftermarket way to cav or mode or guild the edge of the brim, then you'd be a hot commodity for sure!

 

[seabass]

fedoralover,
The hat is beauty !
a real winner !!!!!