Spitfire prototype - Any experts here?

[H.Johnson]

Yes, in the black and white photographs I have seen from the period after the initial flights, the interior appears to have an even 'all-over' finish (except for the seat) so it has clearly been painted, but you can't tell what the colour is.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

As well as "The Spitfire Story," by Alfred Price, I recommend that you get hold of a copy of "Schooldays to Spitfire," by RJ's son Gordon Mitchell. He relates how he was taken to see the prototype, a few days after the first flight, and was struck by how much better it would have looked with a coat of paint, but he didn't dare say so. I take this to mean that K5054 was unpainted.
There are two photographs, each taken by the two men, of the other standing in front of K5054, and there are some strange anomalies. There are no muzzle holes in the wings, apart from a tiny hole (where no.1 gun would have been,) in the starboard wing, and the pitot tubes have gone. Does this indicate that the gun wings had been removed, to enable the guns to be fitted, and purely "flying" wings had replaced them? There's no sign of any filling, or patches (which didn't exist before 1940, anyway,) but the marks (where the original radiators had been fixed to the leading edges) are still visible.
In "The Spitfire Story," there's a very detailed drawing of K5054, done by a man, Harry Robinson, and he's carefully shaded in the painted/primed areas, on the fuselage, but the wings and tailplane are clean, meaning, in my view, that they weren't even primed. Why not?
With regard to the colour, Supermarine had been using a green, in their cockpits, since the S6 series (there's a photograph of the Science Museum's S6B cockpit in a book, published in 1980, by Hiroshi Seo.) Since this would have been designed to be corrosion, i.e. salt water, proof, why would they, almost certainly, use it inside K5054, and use a totally different primer on the outside? I was recently given access to AR213, a Mk.I, after its first, ever, rebuild, and was shown some panels from it, which had seen virtually no daylight, in 60+ years. When we (very carefully) cleaned the dirt off, we found a colour that was a dead match for Humbrol no.90, beige green, and the S6B cockpit is very much like that colour, too. I, too, am working on a 1/32 K5054, and beige green will be my colour of choice.
Plastic seats did not exist before 1940, so K5054's seat would have been metal, and probably green; there was no armour, either, and I believe that the lapstraps, on early airframes, were fitted into the inside (possibly outside) corners of the seat. There was no hole in the backrest, either; that was a later addition.
In his book, Gordon Mitchell states that K5054 was painted "Cerulean Blue." As a child, I had a paintbox, and distinctly remember a cerulean blue, because I loved the colour. Although I've been unable to find what Rolls-Royce used, I've been told that, until their initial demise, in 1972, R-R had all of their company vehicles painted in a blue, which was matched to the blue of the Mediterraenean sky.
I trust that this may be of some use (and controversy, no doubt!)
Edgar

 

[Flieger]

Hello Edgar (and welcome to the Fedora Lounge).

Thank you for posting about the Spitfire Prototype! I have "The Spitfire Story" 2:nd ed by Price but I will definetley try to locate a copy of "Schooldays to Spitfire". Thanks for the tip! The photo showing the closed gun-ports sound very interesting.

Glad to hear that you are also making a 1/32-scale K5054, maybe we can compare notes as our builds progress?

Again thanks!

/Flieger

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Good morning, Flieger (well, it is here.) One other little snippet, that I forgot to add, yesterday; in the Patrick Stephens book, written to compliment the Airfix 1/24th kit, mention is made of the "sickly" green colour, in the cockpit of the Imperial War Museum's Mk.I, which was down for cleaning, when they went to look at it (it's back, hanging up, again, curse it.)
Around 40 years ago, when I was attending a model show, at Shuttleworth, I had a collection of part-built 1/32nd. Spitfires, converted to various Marks, and was approached by a man, who simply introduced himself as an artist, who asked if I was planning to do K5054. I wasn't, then, but he volunteered the information that he'd been told that it was painted a "yucky"(his word) green. He didn't say where he got this from, but Jeffrey Quill, Alex Henshaw, and Gordon Mitchell were all still around, and very much compos mentis around that time.
Thinking about some of the threads, on here, I suspect that there are few photos of Mitchell, around that time, because he knew that he was dying, and, being intensely practical, he didn't want to waste what time he had; others said that it was obvious that, at times, he was in intense pain, and he had to permanently carry a colostomy bag, which has an unpleasant odour. Quill said that he would attend the airfield, when he knew K5054 was flying, but I presume that he spent the rest of his time, at work, in a race against time to get everything settled, for Joe Smith to take over, for example.
With regard to the "unpainted" seat, you need to know one of the rules of photography; a point source of light, whether flash or lamp, travels out in a cone, so, at double the distance, around 1/9th of the light falls on a similar area. Working backwards, if the film is exposed for a set distance, anything closer will receive far more light, therefore appearing to be much lighter than further subjects. This works, even in colour; I have photograhs of items, which I know were green, but they appear white.
Edgar
P.S. I'm cheating, a little, on the model, since I'm using the resin conversion from Paragon.

 

[H.Johnson]

I mentioned that I once worked with Charles, R.J.'s nephew, and during this time I met Gordon once, but I didn't ask him the question that may put us all out of our misery!

 

[Flieger]

P.S. I'm cheating, a little, on the model, since I'm using the resin conversion from Paragon.

Hello Edgar. Why is that cheating? I'm taking the same shortcut and I still think I have enough scratchbuilding to do on the kit to call myself a modeller.

I love the terms "sickly" and "yucky" green. Very precise. lol

/F

 

[Smithy]

Hi Edgar,

Interesting and useful observations you have raised.

I'd take issue with the fact that because AR213 has the FS 34226 grey-green that this would mean that K5054 would have used the same. AR213 was one of the last Mark Is made and as such we know that the "standard" 34226 was well and truly in use by then due to the AM DoTD having set paint specifications for aircraft built for RAF service. Supermarine certainly were using a green primer early on but there is mounting evidence that this was different, as witnessed by paint chips from very early Spitfires such as X4424 and which Paul Lucas has written about.

In terms of the two blues which K5054 was painted in, these were:

- The Rolls-Royce blue (now believed to be - or be similar to - BS 381C 101 Sky Blue)

- The high gloss light blue-grey paint supplied by Cellon called French Grey (Lucas lists this as close to FS 35414 but a bit lighter and more grey)

By the way Edgar, if you haven't seen Lucas' writings on K5054's paint schemes, PM me with your email and I would be happy to send them to you.

As an aside anyone interested in the paint and markings used by the RAF should pick up Lucas' "Camouflage and Markings:The Battle for Britain - RAF May - Dec 1940", a simply fantastic book. It was Lucas who identified the various underside colours in use at this time and dispelled the "everything was duck egg blue" myth.

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Dixon Cannon]

The Supermarine Aviation Works (Vickers) Ltd. Type 300 K5054

http://www.k5054.com/

http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/k5054.html

http://www.rjmitchell-spitfire.co.uk/spitfire/design.asp?sectionID=3

http://www.ratomodeling.com/finished/k5054/k5054.html

http://www.mutleyshangar.com/features/spitfire/anni70.htm

http://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/flash_page.php?table=museum_aircraft&id=12

-dixon cannon

 

[Smithy]

Those first two are very well known photos Dixon. The first is from early 1937 after the armament has been fitted (see the firing lever in the centre of the spade grip). The second is just prior to the first flight and therefore the scheme which Flieger is after.

The CGI image is rather atmospheric isn't it, and shows K5054 as she was seen at the RAF Hendon Pageant on the 27th June 1936, when she gained the 2 just forward of the fuselage roundel.

Cheers,

Tim

 

[Dixon Cannon]

“The subject of K5054's external colour scheme has been a controversial one since time immemorial (well, maybe not that long) and it seems that, unless we somehow invent a time machine, will remain unresolved. Originally she wore unfinished metal with her RAF markings over the top, but later a mysterious grey-blue-green overall scheme was applied (known as French Grey). The exact shade? Lost to us forever after K5054 was repainted in a camouflage scheme around March/April 1937. The facsimile at Tangmere is painted in a mix copied from a model of K5054 owned by Gordon Mitchell (son of RJ Mitchell, the designer of the type) and produced for presentation to his father by Supermarine using the same paint as the actual aircraft. I used Tamiya Light Blue XF23.”
http://www.modelingmadness.com/reviews/preww2/gb/yatesspit.htm [SIZE="1"]spitfire_bm144@hotmail.com[/SIZE] Zak Yates

-dixon cannon

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Hi Edgar,
Interesting and useful observations you have raised.
I'd take issue with the fact that because AR213 has the FS 34226 grey-green that this would mean that K5054 would have used the same. AR213 was one of the last Mark Is made and as such we know that the "standard" 34226 was well and truly in use by then due to the AM DoTD having set paint specifications for aircraft built for RAF service. Supermarine certainly were using a green primer early on but there is mounting evidence that this was different, as witnessed by paint chips from very early Spitfires such as X4424 and which Paul Lucas has written about.
In terms of the two blues which K5054 was painted in, these were:
- The Rolls-Royce blue (now believed to be - or be similar to - BS 381C 101 Sky Blue)
- The high gloss light blue-grey paint supplied by Cellon called French Grey (Lucas lists this as close to FS 35414 but a bit lighter and more grey)
By the way Edgar, if you haven't seen Lucas' writings on K5054's paint schemes, PM me with your email and I would be happy to send them to you.
As an aside anyone interested in the paint and markings used by the RAF should pick up Lucas' "Camouflage and Markings:The Battle for Britain - RAF May - Dec 1940", a simply fantastic book. It was Lucas who identified the various underside colours in use at this time and dispelled the "everything was duck egg blue" myth.
Cheers,
Tim

Actually, I didn't say that AR213 was painted in 34226, in fact Humbrol 90 is nowhere near the "normal" cockpit grey-green (which was in use, by Hawker, as early as the Hart family Humbrol supply 78 as their match for that shade. Although AR213 was not built until 1941, it was only the second Spitfire built by Westland, and the suspicion is that it was built from parts supplied by Supermarine (just like the first airframes from Castle Bromwich.) As far as I can tell, eventually Westland, too, used the normal grey-green. What I said was that I was assuming that K5054 could have had a colour like Humbrol's 90, because the same colour appears in the S6B cockpit (beware photographs of the S6A, at Southampton, since that appears to have been repainted inside.)
Yeovilton's Walrus has been repainted, and the interior colour was matched to what was already there, and it, too, is closer to 90 than 78, by a long distance.
When the Medway Preservation Society rebuilt K9942, for the RAF Museum, they had to get the cockpit colour matched, specially, since it wasn't in the usual grey-green colour, either. Unfortunately, Cosford won't allow close inspection of K9942, because of the usual panic measures over radioactive instruments.
As far as I'm concerned, my findings on AR213, combined with the Patrick Stephens book, plus the S6B, serve to show that there was another colour in use, so I already agree with what you say.
I have Paul Lucas's article, already, but thanks for the offer. My heart sank, a little, at his assertion that K5054 was painted in yellow primer. I know all about the dangers of trying to interpret colours from a black and white photo, but the shading, on that photo above, is far too dark to be yellow, which can appear to be almost white, unless orthochromatic film was used, and that certainly isn't the case with that photo.
Edgar

 

[Smithy]

Actually, I didn't say that AR213 was painted in 34226, in fact Humbrol 90 is nowhere near the "normal" cockpit grey-green (which was in use, by Hawker, as early as the Hart family Humbrol supply 78 as their match for that shade. Although AR213 was not built until 1941, it was only the second Spitfire built by Westland, and the suspicion is that it was built from parts supplied by Supermarine (just like the first airframes from Castle Bromwich.) As far as I can tell, eventually Westland, too, used the normal grey-green. What I said was that I was assuming that K5054 could have had a colour like Humbrol's 90, because the same colour appears in the S6B cockpit (beware photographs of the S6A, at Southampton, since that appears to have been repainted inside.)
Yeovilton's Walrus has been repainted, and the interior colour was matched to what was already there, and it, too, is closer to 90 than 78, by a long distance.
When the Medway Preservation Society rebuilt K9942, for the RAF Museum, they had to get the cockpit colour matched, specially, since it wasn't in the usual grey-green colour, either. Unfortunately, Cosford won't allow close inspection of K9942, because of the usual panic measures over radioactive instruments.
As far as I'm concerned, my findings on AR213, combined with the Patrick Stephens book, plus the S6B, serve to show that there was another colour in use, so I already agree with what you say.
I have Paul Lucas's article, already, but thanks for the offer. My heart sank, a little, at his assertion that K5054 was painted in yellow primer. I know all about the dangers of trying to interpret colours from a black and white photo, but the shading, on that photo above, is far too dark to be yellow, which can appear to be almost white, unless orthochromatic film was used, and that certainly isn't the case with that photo.
Edgar

Sorry Edgar, my mistake, I confused Humbrol 90 with 78 and thought you were talking 34226 (the interior grey-green and hence Humbrol 78). I haven't modelled any aircraft for about a year now and the Humbrol numbering blurred a little into one.

Humbrol 90 though is their take on Sky Type S but actually the shade is closer to a combination of Eau-de-nil and duck egg green. I've never seen it used as a primer colour previously but there's always a first for everything.

I read Lucas' article as saying that K5054 was not the full yellow typical of zinc chromate primer but rather a greenish-yellow shade something like a combination of zinc chromate yellow and something similar to FS 34881 which can be seen on the aforementioned X4424. I agree with you on the photo appearance, it certainly looks to be far too dark to be purely a yellow finish.

It's a fascinating discussion though and probably one which is impossible to say definitively either way. At least we have a fairly good idea of the blues that K5054 appeared in.

Colour discussions always are a can of worms, but at least we're not discussing the cowling colour on Voss' F.1!

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Spitfire Prototype Colours from MAM

http://gregers.7.forumer.com/a/spitfire-prototype-colours-from-mam_post810.html

-dixon cannon

 

[Eyemo]

http://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/flash_page.php?table=museum_aircraft&id=12


I guess this links been posted before...Somewhere (sorry if it has)..
I worked on a Doco for the history Channel a few years back, and had to physically dismantled the replica to take it out from the hanger to outside where we shot the "Mitchell Prototype sequence. I did the stills on the production...but I don't think I ever had them back...Anyhow, check out the “Battle stations” series and you will see prototype detail and our efforts.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Humbrol 90 though is their take on Sky Type S but actually the shade is closer to a combination of Eau-de-nil and duck egg green. I've never seen it used as a primer colour previously but there's always a first for everything.

I have to admit that I thought this was the case, too, but, when Humbrol introduced "The Colour System," a few years back, they advocated a mix, for Sky Type S, of 34 (160 parts) + 101 (5) + 99 (4) + 60 (1) 90 never got a mention, except as "beige-green." I have a suspicion that Humbrol devised 90 for the early cockpit colour, but never bothered to tell anyone! A friend swears that a new(ish) 1/24th Mk.I advocates 90, for the cockpit interior, but I haven't seen it; the VB kit calls for 78, as I'd expect.
Oh, and my apologies for the "winking wotsit," in my earlier post; it started life as a comma, followed by a parenthesis.
Edgar

 

[Flieger]

... The first is from early 1937 after the armament has been fitted (see the firing lever in the centre of the spade grip). ... Cheers,

Tim

Hello Tim: I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but am I to deduct that the spade grip was changed on K5054 after the armament was installed? Or are you just referring to when the photo of the cockpit was taken?

The spade grip is btw a thing that will have to be reworked on my model to show the quite different shape compared to the grip on the production versions.

/F

 

[Smithy]

Hello Tim: I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but am I to deduct that the spade grip was changed on K5054 after the armament was installed? Or are you just referring to when the photo of the cockpit was taken?

Hi Flieger,

I was just referring to how the firing lever had been added to the spade grip, showing that the photo was taken after the armament had been added, and thus wing layout had changed. How's the model coming along? I'd imagine you've been busy with the rescribing tool!

I have to admit that I thought this was the case, too, but, when Humbrol introduced "The Colour System," a few years back, they advocated a mix, for Sky Type S, of 34 (160 parts) + 101 (5) + 99 (4) + 60 (1) 90 never got a mention, except as "beige-green." I have a suspicion that Humbrol devised 90 for the early cockpit colour, but never bothered to tell anyone! A friend swears that a new(ish) 1/24th Mk.I advocates 90, for the cockpit interior, but I haven't seen it; the VB kit calls for 78, as I'd expect.

Now this is a bit of new information Edgar. I had always been under the impression that all the so called sky colours (Sky Type S, duck egg blue, duck egg green, eau-de-nil, sky blue) were top coat finishing colours to be used as finishing coats over primer. I'd never heard of a beige or sky like primer coat.

However I'm not saying it's impossible. There's the mystery of the priming coat/interior colour of very early Hurricanes which was an, as yet, unidentified turquoise colour which also demonstrates (albeit by a different manufacturer) that there were substantially different paints used before the AM DoTD standardised primers and paints that could be used.

 

[Edgar Brooks]

Back in the 1960s, a company sold packs of photographs, for modellers interested in scale r/c models. I couldn't afford many, but I did get the set, for the Spitfire, of AB910, which, at that time, was exactly as built. According to my heading, I can't post attachments, on here, but, believe me, the photos were taken by available light, and the cockpit isn't 78 grey-green; it's 90, or pretty darned close to it.
Edgar

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Edgar Brooks]Back in the 1960s, a company sold packs of photographs, for modellers interested in scale r/c models. I couldn't afford many, but I did get the set, for the Spitfire, of AB910, which, at that time, was exactly as built. According to my heading, I can't post attachments, on here, but, believe me, the photos were taken by available light, and the cockpit isn't 78 grey-green; it's 90, or pretty darned close to it.
Edgar[/SIZE]

EB, I'd be interested in seeing some of those cards. Once you qualify, can you scan some and post them for us?! I love stuff like that!

-dixon cannon

 

[Edgar Brooks]

I've just been reading "Schneider Trophy to Spitfire," a biography of Mitchell, by John Shelton, and he confirms that K5054 didn't emerge in the Rolls-Royce paint scheme until May 9th., 1936, over two months after the first flight; it had the new rudder fitted, by then, too.
Edgar