So what is the Fedora Lounge all about?

[Feraud]

I see what you are saying, but in all honesty, I would not use the word "b bs" in front of my professors at Berkeley. Nor in front of my aunts. Not in front of my niece, either. CERTAINLY not in front of my students. If I did, it would be a slip. Never "t#ts" either.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

I see what you are saying, but in all honesty, I would not use the word "b bs" in front of my professors at Berkeley. Nor in front of my aunts. Not in front of my niece, either. CERTAINLY not in front of my students. If I did, it would be a slip. Never "t#ts" either.

I would like to step in here and say I would say boobs in front of my professors, aunts, uncles, and grandparents, and in mixed company. And so would most of my peers. Not tits though. And why should saying b bs be ok but not boobs? We all know what it means.

And for that matter, talking on the internet about boobs is a far cry from talking to your professors. Apples n' oranges.

Further, the "If you don't like it, leave" sentiment misses the point entirely. This is America! If you don't like it, go back to China!!

 

[Dr Doran]

I would like to step in here and say I would say boobs in front of my professors, aunts, uncles, and grandparents, and in mixed company. And so would most of my peers. Not tits though. And why should saying b bs be ok but not boobs? We all know what it means.!

Ummm. ... don't try to be a grad student in the university where I teach. At least don't study Classics or history there. It might fly in Women's Studies -- I wouldn't know. As for the smilies, I was being humorous.

 

[KittyT]

Seems an odd statement to make after a year's membership and nearly 1600 posts. I think Art's statements are spot on.

That is precisely why I mostly stick to the Powder Room and the Beauty forum - content based rooms where one mostly can't get into trouble.

 

[Dr Doran]

Further, the "If you don't like it, leave" sentiment misses the point entirely. This is America! If you don't like it, go back to China!!

This is not America. This is an internet forum that one person created (although, yes, before you say it, one to which many many people contributed). It is not a miscellaneous grab bag of "anything goes" but a constructed environment with, yes, rules.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Ummm. ... don't try to be a grad student in the university where I teach. At least don't study Classics or history there. It might fly in Women's Studies -- I wouldn't know. As for the smilies, I was being humorous.

So what you're saying here, is that we have different points of view? This is truly shocking.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

This is not America. This is an internet forum that one person created (although, yes, before you say it, one to which many many people contributed). It is not a miscellaneous grab bag of "anything goes" but a constructed environment with, yes, rules.

True, and although I was making a joke, I think this discussion is about change? That's why saying "If you don't like it, leave" is unfair.

Speaking of which, I'm leaving this thread and going back to the PR for content-related discussions.

 

[Dr Doran]

So what you're saying here, is that we have different points of view? This is truly shocking.

That is not at all what I am saying in any respect whatsoever. I am saying that there are, objectively speaking, outside of subjective opinions of yourself or myself, environments in which certain things are appropriate and certain ones not. While the decisions of whether something is appropriate are, yes, at root socially constructed, Bella's or Timmy's opinion on the matter is small and irrelevant. There is a world outside your opinion and mine.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

That is not at all what I am saying in any respect whatsoever. I am saying that there are, objectively speaking, outside of subjective opinions of yourself or myself, environments in which certain things are appropriate and certain ones not. While the decisions of whether something is appropriate are, yes, at root socially constructed, Bella's or Timmy's opinion on the matter is small and irrelevant. There is a world outside your opinion and mine.

Let's not forget that this is about whether you or I would say a certain word in front of certain people. You would, I wouldn't. Your opinion is that the word is inappropriate. Mine is that it isn't. I'm not sure that you are objectively correct. You are sure of that. Do not claim that your opinion is the objective truth. It is not.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Maybe a good way to look at it would be to suggest that it has less to do with what we ourselves think is appropriate or not than it does with what is appropriate before the group with which we happen to be. There are things one could comfortably say among a group of close friends that would be entirely inappropriate to say while waiting in line at the bank, or in a conversation with one's boss. Or while delivering a lecture to a class, or a summation to a jury. I think we all recognize that, no matter how free-spirited we might be, there *are* boundaries. The only real question is how broadly drawn we think those boundaries ought to be.

 

[KittyT]

OK, I'm pretty done with this. As someone else mentioned, a year and 1600 posts later, I'm just not sure this place impresses me anymore. The FL infuriates me on almost a daily basis, and through all this discussion of "change" my nagging feeling is that we will see none, in part because there are too many bartenders trying to keep order with differing opinions and styles, and there is too much inconsistency - WAY too many cooks in the kitchen, if you will.

And while I continue to contemplate this, I will go back to the PR for some real content.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

And while I continue to contemplate this, I will go back to the PR for some real content.

And "real content" is the entire point!

 

[Dr Doran]

Maybe a good way to look at it would be to suggest that it has less to do with what we ourselves think is appropriate or not than it does with what is appropriate before the group with which we happen to be. There are things one could comfortably say among a group of close friends that would be entirely inappropriate to say while waiting in line at the bank, or in a conversation with one's boss. Or while delivering a lecture to a class, or a summation to a jury. I think we all recognize that, no matter how free-spirited we might be, there *are* boundaries. The only real question is how broadly drawn we think those boundaries ought to be.

Yes, that is what I meant, and I apologize to Bella if I sounded offputting. I meant that there are standards that are in place already and that it is generally best to respect those standards and not treat them as arbitrary. Everyone treating them as arbitrary leads to a big ugly mess. Or, as I said in another thread:

"Perhaps lexical items (i.e. words) and the cloth one puts on one's back are, in some grand sense, arbitrary indeed, but they are not arbitrary relative to the history that has immediately (and not so immediately) preceded them. If you take the "it's only arbitrary" argument too far, then everything becomes arbitrary and there is no foundation on which to judge, or even describe, anything."

 

[Dr Doran]

OK, I'm pretty done with this. As someone else mentioned, a year and 1600 posts later, I'm just not sure this place impresses me anymore. The FL infuriates me on almost a daily basis, and through all this discussion of "change" my nagging feeling is that we will see none, in part because there are too many bartenders trying to keep order with differing opinions and styles, and there is too much inconsistency - WAY too many cooks in the kitchen, if you will.

And while I continue to contemplate this, I will go back to the PR for some real content.

Well, for the record Kitty, I still like you, still respect you, and still enjoy your posts and think you have interesting things to say. And I mean that.

 

[KittyT]

Maybe a good way to look at it would be to suggest that it has less to do with what we ourselves think is appropriate or not than it does with what is appropriate before the group with which we happen to be.

The problem with this is that everyone is going to have different ideas of what that means. My idea of "proper" when I'm around my family is a little different than "proper" when I'm around my friends and peers. This is a place where we all share common interests and as such, I want to consider everyone here to be my peers... not my parents.

When I first meet someone, I will be more formal - take off my glove to shake their hand, "how do you do? It's a pleasure to meet you." But after a certain amount of time, formalities seem forced and you just want to be yourself with that person.

 

[Dr Doran]

Hmmm. So were your parents overly and unfairly restrictive when you were young? (Strokes beard, adjusts monocle, makes inscrutable notes in ledger.)

 

[KittyT]

Yes, that is what I meant, and I apologize to Bella if I sounded offputting. I meant that there are standards that are in place already and that it is generally best to respect those standards and not treat them as arbitrary.

Yes, but the problem is that someone makes those boundaries for us, and we all have different ideas of where they should be. In addition, these boundaries aren't general social standards, they are standards for the Fedora Lounge only. The other problem is that they ARE arbitrary - because every bartender has a little different opinion of where those boundaries should be and how they should be enforced.

I totally need a list of everything that is considered "distasteful" here, because my ideas are obviously very different from those of the powers that be. Making a list might be considered "distasteful" as well, but that's sort of already what's happening, and at least it would codify things for those of us who have a little bit different concept of propriety.

 

[surely]

When I first meet someone, I will be more formal - take off my glove to shake their hand, "how do you do?

Cutting to the chase: in respone to "It's a pleasure to meet you." I often say "wait till you get to know me." It often startles, but it also breaks down barriers fast.

 

[Dr Doran]

Yes, but the problem is that someone makes those boundaries for us, and we all have different ideas of where they should be. In addition, these boundaries aren't general social standards, they are standards for the Fedora Lounge only. The other problem is that they ARE arbitrary - because every bartender has a little different opinion of where those boundaries should be and how they should be enforced.

I totally need a list of everything that is considered "distasteful" here, because my ideas are obviously very different from those of the powers that be. Making a list might be considered "distasteful" as well, but that's sort of already what's happening, and at least it would codify things for those of us who have a little bit different concept of propriety.

More uniformity. OK, I can see your point.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Yes, but the problem is that someone makes those boundaries for us, and we all have different ideas of where they should be. In addition, these boundaries aren't general social standards, they are standards for the Fedora Lounge only. The other problem is that they ARE arbitrary - because every bartender has a little different opinion of where those boundaries should be and how they should be enforced.

Actually, KittyT, just to clarify a bit, almost nothing around here is done arbitrarily. Nearly everything a bartender does is by consensus and consultation with other bartenders.

It is true that the Lounge has its own high standards in an effort to keep this place the civil place we all enjoy.