So trivial, yet it really ticks you off.

[tonyb]

The application of the pejorative "dive" to any bar that isn't trendy and expensive.

In my carousing days, a dive was the place you might get stabbed, or where you might see a patron or two passed out in a booth, if not on the floor, or where you could find your way to the men's restroom blindfolded -- just follow your nose, and try to step around the puddles when you get there.

It took a great deal more than worn upholstery and old country tunes on the jukebox to make a dive. I've read writers from big-city dailies deem perfectly respectable bars "dives." Seriously, they've said it about the kinds of places you would take your mother or your daughter.

Decline of the language, I suppose.

 

[dh66]

The application of the pejorative "dive" to any bar that isn't trendy and expensive.

In my carousing days, a dive was the place you might get stabbed, or where you might see a patron or two passed out in a booth, if not on the floor, or where you could find your way to the men's restroom blindfolded -- just follow your nose, and try to step around the puddles when you get there.

It took a great deal more than worn upholstery and old country tunes on the jukebox to make a dive. I've read writers from big-city dailies deem perfectly respectable bars "dives." Seriously, they've said it about the kinds of places you would take your mother or your daughter.

Decline of the language, I suppose.

Probably the same writers who would refer to anyone whose home still had the wheels attached as "trash".... less to do with any decline of language I would suppose, than with a decline of civility and humility.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think of the whole "dive bar" phenomenon as kind of a hipster thing -- the word, in that usage, seems to mean "sincere," as opposed to the typical contrived format of many modern drinking establishments. A "dive bar" is a bar that's just a place to drink, and not an upscale attempt to cater to some particular market-researched focus-grouped Boys From Marketing demographic.

Of course, when they discover a "dive bar" or a "dive restaurant," they proceed to colonize it, drive off the local patrons, and eventually it loses all of its sincerity and becomes just another roomful of self-conscious trendy types striking poses. Hello gentrification.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^^
In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra, "Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded."

 

[Fading Fast]

I think of the whole "dive bar" phenomenon as kind of a hipster thing -- the word, in that usage, seems to mean "sincere," as opposed to the typical contrived format of many modern drinking establishments. A "dive bar" is a bar that's just a place to drink, and not an upscale attempt to cater to some particular market-researched focus-grouped Boys From Marketing demographic.

Of course, when they discover a "dive bar" or a "dive restaurant," they proceed to colonize it, drive off the local patrons, and eventually it loses all of its sincerity and becomes just another roomful of self-conscious trendy types striking poses. Hello gentrification.

^^^^^
In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra, "Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded."

⇧ This happens all the time in NYC. It has been going on for the 30 or so years I've lived here, but now the-always-looking-for-authenticiy Millennials have amped it up. When they discover a bar, diner or bakery (happened twice) that I've been going to for 30 or so years - and that's been around for fifty or more (and, for two places, nearly a hundred) years, the place gets a sudden jolt of popularity that all-but overwhelms the capacity / infrastructure of the place.

In most - not all - cases, there's an arc to the thing. At first, the place seems to get a little busier and I'll notice that it's younger, hipper (not just hipsters, but definitely "cool" younger) people causing the uptick in traffic. The employees or owners (who, in my favorite haunts, I know) will mention to me that they've gotten busier with "the younger crowd."

Then it goes kinda crazy and crowds / lines form and the place gets written up on all the "cool" blogs, websites, etc. Now it's not just the "cool discoverers," but all those who swim in their wake - the less cool, the younger still-want-to-be-cool moms, dads, families, etc. and, then, (and only in some cases) the tourists swarm in.

Some places succumb, build out their infrastructure, get full of themselves, raise their prices, "upgrade" their menu, etc. I've seen that end in a more successful business and I've seen it end in the place closing in six months as the popularity fades and the regulars don't return especially if the place changed a lot.

But other places don't succumb, take it in stride, add some staff, deal with the crowds as best they can and - since they don't alter their business model to the new demand - as the popularity fades, the regulars are still there and business returns to kinda normal but with a bit more activity.

I can bemoan it - which I do a bit - and be frustrated by the few places that, effectively, let the popularity go to their head and destroy their business, but, as the saying goes, it is what it is. At my age, the young kids who get all worked up about these places, but seem more into their lifestyles than just enjoying these wonderful throwbacks, are a bit silly, but they're free to do what they want. For the ones that survive - it's just something we talk about "remember last summer when you had to wait on line" (which happened at one of the bakeries I mentioned). Unfortunately, while I hate that a few were destroyed - it's human nature: some will get spoiled by success.

 

[tonyb]

And then there are the authentically phony. They give every indication that that is what they truly are.

Some have made quite the names for themselves.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm lucky that the place where I get breakfast has so far resisted all attempts at gentrificiation, while several "upscale" breakfast-and-lunch places have come and gone over the last couple of decades. The place is run by an old set-in-its-ways local family that's completely oblivious to all trendiness. This is the kind of old-school New England place where portraits of JFK and RFK still unironically adorn the walls.

 

[Harp]

Houseman was cashing in on his The Paper Chase Professor Charles Kingsfield character. The movie, with Timothy Bottoms and Lindsey Wagner, was pretty good. But there was a later television series where they did an Iago the Parrot Job on Kingsfield: made him more "lovable" in order to widen appeal.

My understanding is that the Harvard law prof upon which Kingsfield was based, Edward H. "Bull" Warren (who taught Property Law, not Contracts), was even more of an S.O.B. than Hauseman's original character.

That sort of thing happens in the rarefied world of high finance. The Pound took a hammering when it dropped out of supposed parity with the Euro, it wasn't a like for like parity but the Euro bolstered Stirling's value. Now that the sky hasn't fallen in on the impending exit from the EU, rumours abound that Stirling will hit two dollars to the Pound before the end of 2018. As a result, the Pound's value is climbing.

Marbury v Madison was my first class case cite, and the professor a very impressive Columbia Law grad; after answering a litany of Socratic method he dragged me across the Constitution, a memorable One L encounter.
__________

Sterling's at 1.3048 with a 1.2830 fifty-day average cross. Interesting currency and constitutional issues at play over the pond and Pound.

 

[BlueTrain]

You'll have to explain what authentically phony is to me. I've never heard of that.

But most of the stuff here I understand. I recall a cartoon published somewhere probably 40 years ago that showed a carload or two of young hipsters, presumably with money, stopping in front of some very ordinary barbeque place of the sort you find in a few off the beaten path places in the South, often as not owned by black folks, and thus are more authentic. And the young people discover the restaurant in the cartoon, as if it had previously been undiscovered.

Many traditional and "authentic" restaurants never get discovered, of course, because they really are way off the beaten path. They may or may not be good places to eat, but that might be beside the point anyway. There used to be a diner in Front Royal, Virginia, of a classic diner construction, too (meaning a purpose-built diner). I stopped there a few times when I was up there but the place eventually closed, although the building is now the office for a used car dealer. Authentic it was and it had blue-plate special type meals but it wasn't the cleanest place I've ever been nor was it very large. In fact, it was tiny. But there are a few other good places that are half-way well known that we visit whenever we are in the area. It's just that the area itself isn't trendy. One such place is in Bolivar, West Virginia (named after Simon Bolivar), next to Harper's Ferry. In fact, it's a very nice place that makes an effort to actually be nice and clean. But there's no real competition for, oh, ten miles in any direction. That always helps. The biggest competition is probably the Charlestown Racetrack (and slots!) just up the road.

But as far as attracting "the younger crowd," it just might be that if the older restaurants you may regret the passing of, had done a little more to actually attract new customers, they might still be around. But who knows?

There's another kind of restaurant, too, that one might describe as a fad restaurant. They're always new, although they may occupy the space vacated by another restaurant. You know the type. They open and before long there are lines waiting to get in. They before you know it, they have disappeared. But don't take the lines to get in as something bad. I can think of a few places that might have lines outside on a Friday night. Such places can be nice, family places, with decent food that is never too trendy, a lively crowd, if you don't mind kids, and reasonable (but not cheap) prices. That describes some chains, too, but it sure helps to be located in the right place in an area where people eat out a lot.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think "authentically phony" to be the kind of place that goes out of its way to tell you how "authentic" it is, compared to a place that just exists, with no self-consciousness of its origins. A meticulous recreation of a "fifties diner" is authentically phony, compared to a diner that has actually existed since 1952 without changing its decor, location or menu and makes no point whatever about this -- it's simply that greasy little place where the dockworkers go for a cheap lunch.

I submit that a "fifties diner" by its very nature is authentically phony. Diners were in their heyday in the 1920s and 1930s -- by the 1950s they were getting frowsy and outmoded.

 

[tonyb]

And then there are the genuinely disingenuous. It's who they are at base. You know, those who would rather tell an elaborate fiction than a simple truth, if they perceived some advantage to themselves in so doing, whether that advantage is actually there or not.

I've known people who are so in the habit of spinning yarns that it becomes their default mode. They'll tell a lie when there's no point in it. I can count a couple of relatives who fit the description.

 

[LizzieMaine]

"Lying is a skill like any other. To maintain a level of excellence, you must practice constantly."
-- Elim Garak, "Deep Space Nine."

 

[Zombie_61]

"Lying is a skill like any other. To maintain a level of excellence, you must practice constantly."
-- Elim Garak, "Deep Space Nine."

I don't disagree, but can you really trust a Cardassian?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Odo: You'd shoot a man in the back?
Garak: Well, that's the safest way, isn't it?

 

[Stearmen]

I don't disagree, but can you really trust a Cardassian?

Isn't that the liars paradox? A Cretan walks up and says to you, "All Cretans are liars."

 

[Fading Fast]

I think "authentically phony" to be the kind of place that goes out of its way to tell you how "authentic" it is, compared to a place that just exists, with no self-consciousness of its origins. A meticulous recreation of a "fifties diner" is authentically phony, compared to a diner that has actually existed since 1952 without changing its decor, location or menu and makes no point whatever about this -- it's simply that greasy little place where the dockworkers go for a cheap lunch.

I submit that a "fifties diner" by its very nature is authentically phony. Diners were in their heyday in the 1920s and 1930s -- by the 1950s they were getting frowsy and outmoded.

I agree, but there is a strange hybrid near me.

Back in the late '80s (about then, anyway), a diner opened up near me that had a very low-key retro decor, but didn't play it up at all the way the new "fifties diners" have in the last ten or so years (with perfect replications of diners that were probably never that perfect - or clean). And the food and pricing was basically diner like but, for the '80s, updated a bit.

It is now almost 30 years since it opened and it hasn't updated its decor much other than the occasional half-*ssed paint job and serves, basically, good reasonably priced diner food (same menu from the '80s with a tweak here or there) - both traditional stuff and some updated stuff. It's become a neighborhood institution and, oddly, IMHO, has earned some authenticity by dint of being around a long time, not playing up to the vogue of "retro-diner" but offering, overall, good, fair-priced diner food.

Despite starting out with a bit of a cheesy "retro" feel when it opened, by not playing up to that and by doing the hard work of earning credibility - it might almost be authentic. That said, it's a one-off if it is. All the other diners that have opened in the last three decades in NYC have been loud, garish, over-priced "retro" messes that I stay far away from.

 

[tonyb]

^^^^^^
" ... 'course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough."

-- John Huston as Noah Cross in "Chinatown," 1974.

 

[Stearmen]

When you get a bunch of alerts from fedora Lounge patrons, and your heart stops momentarily as you think to your self, "what did I post last night, did I accidentally offend a bunch of people?" Of course, you feel better, when you see they are all liked your post!

 

[sheeplady]

So my family and I moved halfway across the country for my job.

Does it really kill people to look at my husband and I and say, "did one of you move here for your job?" Or "is one of you a professor at the college?" Or better, "why did you move here?" Is it really that hard?

Apparently.

It is much easier to look at my husband and say, "oh, you must have moved here because you're a professor." Or to me, "your husband must be a new professor at the college." Really? Really?

I have heard a few people who are more diplomatic about it, but come on, it's 2017. I know academic women are still far and few between, but it's not like we're SO RARE you've never seen one in public.

(On a happy note, my husband loves saying, "no, we moved here because MY WIFE has a job at the college.")

 

[Stearmen]

So my family and I moved halfway across the country for my job.

Does it really kill people to look at my husband and I and say, "did one of you move here for your job?" Or "is one of you a professor at the college?" Or better, "why did you move here?" Is it really that hard?

Apparently.

It is much easier to look at my husband and say, "oh, you must have moved here because you're a professor." Or to me, "your husband must be a new professor at the college." Really? Really?

I have heard a few people who are more diplomatic about it, but come on, it's 2017. I know academic women are still far and few between, but it's not like we're SO RARE you've never seen one in public.

(On a happy note, my husband loves saying, "no, we moved here because MY WIFE has a job at the college.")

I personally never ask any one, what do you do for a living? I find ones hobby's to be a more interesting topic!