Snap brim and rain

[rpersson]

I purchased a new fur felt hat (not vintage) with a 75 mm snap brim, the cheapest fur felt (not wool felt, mind you) hat I could find (79 euros, if I recall correctly). I love it and wear it constantly, but one night after walking home from a party, I was caught in a slight shower without an umbrella. I sat the hat to dry, front brim snapped down (up in the back), the way I wear it, over the ledge of a pile of stacked books.

The hat was wet but not soaked, although it gave off a weak scent that dog owners know from when their pets get wet. The next morning the hat looked brilliant; some of the unevenness of the brim was even gone. However, the front brim is now permanently in the down position (the back brim can be snapped up and down just fine). This is not actually a problem in itself, as the hat still looks good, but what worries me is what the next inevitable shower will do to my hat (I can't be sure, but I think also the felt of the crown is softer than before, although the creases look just like they did before).

My question is one I hope that a hatter can answer. How, exactly, is the snappiness of the brim created? What are the mechanics behind it, and how can it be lost by some dampness? Are there different ways to achieve this effect, and cheap hats just happen to favor one which is not water resistant? Is there likely to be further changes to the integrity of the hat following future rain showers and would hat stiffener reverse this effect of the rain?

 

[jlee562]

Well, I'm not a hatter, but I can offer some insight. The snap is a function of the flange of the brim. It's a wooden oval with the desired curvature, over which the felt can be steamed to retain the shape. In production this is customarily done with both steam and pressure.

You should always unsnap the brim to prevent exactly the situation which you've encountered. Try giving the brim a little steam (do not steam the sweatband). This should reactivate the shellac in the felt and help you shape the brim.

Although, that having been said, sometimes cheap hat is cheap.

 

[rpersson]

Well, I'm not a hatter, but I can offer some insight. The snap is a function of the flange of the brim. It's a wooden oval with the desired curvature, over which the felt can be steamed to retain the shape. In production this is customarily done with both steam and pressure.

You should always unsnap the brim to prevent exactly the situation which you've encountered. Try giving the brim a little steam (do not steam the sweatband). This should reactivate the shellac in the felt and help you shape the brim.

Although, that having been said, sometimes cheap hat is cheap.

Thank you for your answer, but this is where I have trouble understanding. I am reluctant to try any steam or water on my hat until I can figure out exactly what the difference is between a snap brim and a non-snap brim. It seems to be a very delicate difference during the blocking, whether the brim can subsequently be snapped or not, as the production process as I understand it (and you describe it) is largely the same (shape the hat, apply steam and pressure).

 

[jlee562]

Thank you for your answer, but this is where I have trouble understanding. I am reluctant to try any steam or water on my hat until I can figure out exactly what the difference is between a snap brim and a non-snap brim. It seems to be a very delicate difference during the blocking, whether the brim can subsequently be snapped or not, as the production process as I understand it (and you describe it) is largely the same (shape the hat, apply steam and pressure).

Oooookay.

If your hat already got wet enough to dry in a different shape, steam will not hurt the felt.

When you say the brim is "permanently" down, I'm not sure what you mean. Well, it could mean that there's not enough stiffener, and the brim is drooping, but what you seem to be describing is related to the stiffener.

There's nothing delicate about the process, it's the curve of the flange. What happened when you dried the hat with the brim down, is that you removed the original curl of the brim. No curl, no snap.

 

[jlee562]

Or don't listen to me, listen to Graham:
https://optimo.com/hat-care

 

[rpersson]

Oooookay.

If your hat already got wet enough to dry in a different shape, steam will not hurt the felt.

When you say the brim is "permanently" down, I'm not sure what you mean. Well, it could mean that there's not enough stiffener, and the brim is drooping, but what you seem to be describing is related to the stiffener.

There's nothing delicate about the process, it's the curve of the flange. What happened when you dried the hat with the brim down, is that you removed the original curl of the brim. No curl, no snap.

OK. Thanks for the clarification. What I mean by "permanently snapped down" is basically "no snap", i. e., there is only one configuration possible and that is with the front brim down.

I'm writing this before watching the video you linked, but I think I understand now that basically "snap brim = curled brim", so the logical conclusion is that any (felt) brim with a curl is also a snap brim. Is that correct?

I don't mind the look of my hat and don't have the time and patience to experiment with shaping it purposefully, but the next time I get caught in the rain, I will try to shape a curl into the brim as it dries.

EDIT: I should probably add that there might also be something to do with the stiffener, as I think the felt is a bit softer now than before (but can't be sure). Since I don't know hat production, I just don't know what corners are cut in the production of cheap vs expensive hats (of the same material). Are there different options for the stiffener?

 

[Lean'n'mean]

As jlee stated above, a snap brim is the result of a flanged brim i.e. the brim has been given a cupped shape all he way around by placing it on a flange, (which looks a little like a small toilet seat,) & then the brim steamed & pressed so it takes on the charateristic half rounded form of the flange. This has the effect of creating a lot of tension in the brim , almost like a spring, & so can be snapped down front or back & up again.
Non flanged brims don't have the necessary tension to be able to snap down or up & so must be steamed or moistened in some way & then shaped while damp, so as to retain the shape desired.
When flanged brimmed hats do get wet, it is recommended to let them dry, brim up all the way around.
In your case, because you dried the hat with the front of the brim down, you have lost the flange around the front & so it is now behaving like a partially unflanged brim. Short of takng the hat to hatter & having the brim re-flanged, what you could do is steam the front of the brim & shape it by hand, trying to get back that concave curve around the front of the brim & then let it dry, on a flat surface, brim snapped up all the way around. You should be able to refind the snap brim.
Rain does effect felt hats, they will become softer as the stiffener breaks down & depending on both the quality of the felt & stiffener, may become too floppy with time to hold a shape & so, will need to be re-stiffened.
In my experience, though many others will probably disagree with me, felt hats don't make good rain hats & apart from the unavoidable unforecast shower, it's best not to get them wet & if you do insist on wearing a felt hat under the rain, an umbrella is your friend.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

but I think I understand now that basically "snap brim = curled brim", so the logical conclusion is that any (felt) brim with a curl is also a snap brim. Is that correct?

Not exactly. Bowler/Derby & homburg hats for example, have 'curled' brims yet are not snappable.

 

[rpersson]

Not exactly. Bowler/Derby & homburg hats for example, have 'curled' brims yet are not snappable.

Are they not "snappable-snappable" or are they in fact snappable given enough applied force?

If it's the former, it means that there is something more that is needed to make a snap brim, and I am curious to know what it is.

 

[jlee562]

OK. Thanks for the clarification. What I mean by "permanently snapped down" is basically "no snap", i. e., there is only one configuration possible and that is with the front brim down.

this doesn't make any sense to me. It's just a piece of felt, push it back up. Are you saying that the brim won't stay up if you unsnap it? Or are you saying you feel the felt resisting the pressure you're trying to apply to push it back up?

I'm writing this before watching the video you linked, but I think I understand now that basically "snap brim = curled brim", so the logical conclusion is that any (felt) brim with a curl is also a snap brim. Is that correct?

short answer, no. It has to do with the degree of curl/radius of the flange, as well as design.

 

[jlee562]

Are they not "snappable-snappable" or are they in fact snappable given enough applied force?

If it's the former, it means that there is something more that is needed to make a snap brim, and I am curious to know what it is.

they're not 'snappable' because they are stiff felt felts that were neither designed, nor flanged, to be a snap brim fedora.

 

[rpersson]

this doesn't make any sense to me. It's just a piece of felt, push it back up. Are you saying that the brim won't stay up if you unsnap it? Or are you saying you feel the felt resisting the pressure you're trying to apply to push it back up?

Well, the felt is soft, I can push it back up, but it won't "snap" into place and stay there. It will stay down once I let go.

short answer, no. It has to do with the degree of curl/radius of the flange, as well as design.

I figure, the radius of the curl is directly related to the force required for the snap, no?

 

[rpersson]

they're not 'snappable' because they are stiff felt felts that were neither designed, nor flanged, to be a snap brim fedora.

I am not trying to be dense, I just want to figure this out. Please bear with me.

A non-snappable curled felt brim is treated with a stronger (or at least different) stiffener than a snappable one?

 

[jlee562]

Well, the felt is soft, I can push it back up, but it won't "snap" into place and stay there. It will stay down once I let go.

then we are right back to what's already been said. You 'undid' the flange by drying the brim down. Steam it, and dry it flat.

I figure, the radius of the curl is directly related to the force required for the snap, no?

No.

 

[jlee562]

I am not trying to be dense, I just want to figure this out. Please bear with me.

A non-snappable curled felt brim is treated with a stronger (or at least different) stiffener than a snappable one?

Generally speaking there are two broad categories of hats (at least as far as contemporaneous trade language is concerned) stiff and soft felt hats. A Derby both has more shellac than a soft felt hat, but the felt blank itself is treated with stiffener before dying, rather than after as is the case with soft felts. And again, the flange is different because one does not snap the brim down on a Derby.

 

[rpersson]

Generally speaking there are two broad categories of hats (at least as far as contemporaneous trade language is concerned) stiff and soft felt hats. A Derby both has more shellac than a soft felt hat, but the felt blank itself is treated with stiffener before dying, rather than after as is the case with soft felts. And again, the flange is different because one does not snap the brim down on a Derby.

Thank you. With this information, I'm thinking of not trying to recover the "snap", as I don't think I would ever conceivably wear it snapped up, but rather to try and stiffen the felt of my fedora in its current shape. That way, I figure it should be more rain resistant.

 

[jlee562]

Thank you. With this information, I'm thinking of not trying to recover the "snap", as I don't think I would ever conceivably wear it snapped up, but rather to try and stiffen the felt of my fedora in its current shape. That way, I figure it should be more rain resistant.

Stiffener =/= water protection.

 

[Winston Carter]

Thank you. With this information, I'm thinking of not trying to recover the "snap", as I don't think I would ever conceivably wear it snapped up, but rather to try and stiffen the felt of my fedora in its current shape. That way, I figure it should be more rain resistant.

Kahl Hat Stiffener.

 

[Winston Carter]

Rain Hat Covers work well for rainy days too.
http://www.hat-co.com/perch//resources/s19hataccessoriespdf.pdf

 

[scottyrocks]

Steam the front of the brim, curl it up to match the back, place on flat surface. If it doesn't behave the way you like after that, get some of that hat stiffener.