Smoking in England banned from July 1st...

[Edward]

I was just telling my boyfriend about pubs in London I wanted to see but can't because they're full of smoke. This ban in England changes things, I'll have an easier time in the city next time I travel there. I'll be able to patronize more business, so from a tourism point of view it could be a plus.

If one of those was/is the Blind Begger in Whitechapel (famous due to its connection to the Kray legend), it's amazing the difference it's made there (it's one of my locals). I walked past last inght, and I can't remember ever having looked into it from the outsdie before and being able to see clearly all the way to the back. It'll be intersting to see how the ban works over time. Seems to me that in the UK, smoking is a dying habit anyhow - only aqbout 30% of adults smoke now. Don't know what the breakdown is between genders, but in the war years a little over 50% of men and about I think 40%(?) of women smoked. It's definitely something I see less of than when I was growing up in the 70s / 80s... seems odd now to look back on old fimls, even 70s sitcoms and see just how common smoking is depicted as being - that has definitely changed in my lifetime. I think it's gonig to be interesting to see whether we see the evolution of a whole new smoking culture, or whether the limitations it puts on people amoking in a public place actually encourage more people to give up.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

It will be interesting, yes. Especially since poll after poll after poll - at least in the UK, though i believe this is true also in the US - tells us that a solid majority of smokers would like to quit (if only, in the UK, because of the financial burden of the habit).

Dallas surely has some weird as hell demographics if you can break down tip value between smokers vs non-smokers.

bk

 

[Elaina]

Experience. I work smoking I make a certain amount. I work non-smoking I make less. Has happened since I started working. Not weird demographics at all.

 

[cookie]

Has anyone been in the pub since the ban? I've heard it's a lot more pleasant for so many folks, but I've not been in one sicne sunday.... I did drop in on Friday night though for a quick drink and soem pre-theatre food in a pub in the West End that a bunch of friends use when we're uptown for the theatre. They went non smoking some days ahead of the ban, and the difference was amazing. So much nicer to walk through the place, and it even made a huge difference in the little non-smoking section at the back where we always sat and which always was non-smoking. Seems to me that there might be an inital fuss, but that'll be it.

Are the hookah places covered then? I wondered whether they would be as I thought there wasn't any smoke came out of those things (I've never studied one in use)? I suspect we'll see a big upswing in nicoteen gum etc - both from folks who are trying to give up now, and those who don't want to give up but are using it for convenience so as to not have to go outside for a fix as often.

Now to get rid of the smell of stale beer and pubs will be perfect.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I suspect the smoke has been covering the rancid smell from the carpets until now. I'll see this evening how the ban has affected the atmosphere. The carpet in my local must be a least 75 years old. Threadbare is not the word. I wonder how many pints have been spilled on it and not cleaned up properly over the years?

bk

 

[Fleur De Guerre]

That's what I was saying earlier Baron. It's not just stale beer, it's puke, BO clinging to the walls, other various bodily excretions..... mmm!

 

[panamag8or]

In Florida the rule is that smoking is banned in restaurants and bars that recieve 10% or more of their income from food, or something like that. Some bars stopped serving food entirely, so that people could still smoke there. I'm a smoker, but I always asked to be in the non-smoking section at restaurants, because I don't smoke during dinner... that's kinda nasty. I do, however, like to smoke while I am playing darts, so it's a good thing my local dart bar still allows it.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I remember during the consultation period that there was some discussion of allowing smoking to remain in places where no food was served. This came to nothing, however.

bk

 

[Edward]

I remember during the consultation period that there was some discussion of allowing smoking to remain in places where no food was served. This came to nothing, however.

bk

It always seemed crazy priorities to me for somewhere to say "We're gonig to stop with the food so we can still have smoking!", but I guess if they were scared they'd lose so much business once the ban came in.... As I recall, it was even more convoluted as the definition of what was and was not serving food was not clear cut. If memory serves, the proposal was not to allow smoking where the food was not prepared on the premises (crisps, sandwiches, etc) - I suppose the idea being not to prevent smoking venues from being forbidden to sell pork scratchings and similar bar snacks. They didn't manage to get any agreement - I think what really sunk it though was that they couldn't make a case against the argument baqsed on perceived health risks to the staff behind the bar in smoking venues.

In any case, I suspect that sooner or later a court's interpreation of pre-existing health & safety at work legislation would have forced a smoking ban down that route without the need for specific legislation. The specific ban is I think a much clearer way to do it, though.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Went into the Village Pub in Walthamstow the other evening and . . . Lo and Behold! there was the chap who sits drinking and smoking all day, accounting for probably no less than 10% of the pub's business during the week. he wasn't smoking, but drinking as much as ever.

yes, the carpet was rotten. Funny how one takes notice of such things when the most rotten thing is gone.

Off to The Plough this evening. Will report.

bk

p.s. I note that quite a number of the pubs 'round here have established chair/table space on the footpaths to accommodate the smokers. This is probably illegal, but a realistic interim measure.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

If memory serves, the proposal was not to allow smoking where the food was not prepared on the premises (crisps, sandwiches, etc) - I suppose the idea being not to prevent smoking venues from being forbidden to sell pork scratchings and similar bar snacks.

yes, that sounds convoluted enough, and with the requisite number of double negatives for British Parliamentary speech . . .

bk

 

[JohnTheGreek]

Great lines from cinema....

"hey, you can't smoke in here"...

"Wadda ya gonna do, arrest me for smoking?"



I had this basic conversation on the EMPTY patio (save myself and a date) of a Salt Lake City, Utah cafe. I finished smoking my Churchill sized cigar, enjoyed my meal (except for the waiter interrupting twice more to tell me I couldn't smoke there) and left. I think it was Thureau who said we have a moral obligation to break unjust laws, no? Pipe smokers UNITE! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

Best,

John

 

[Baron Kurtz]

He should have thrown you out bodily. Or have the police remove you.

I think it was Thureau who said we have a moral obligation to break unjust laws, no?

Gandhi said something very similar. Funnily enough, he was talking of something rather more important than the ability to smoke where he wished.

bk

 

[JohnTheGreek]

He should have thrown you out bodily. Or have the police remove you.

From an open patio with no other customers around? Right...that makes sense. lol The reality is that we all tolerate things every day that we find distasteful. I inhale diesel exhaust on the street, bad smells from the gutter, listen to noisy cars, noisy motorcycles, even see visually unappealing individuals or things. I am even occasionally forced to listen to or read ideas that are so silly that it frankly makes my brain hurt. All of the above are, at least theoretically, physically or psychologically harmful to me. I don't care. I don't demand compensation from these individuals (as economic theory says I should in order to "internalize an externality") and I don't call in the government to protect me from them. I might do what I can to minimize my exposure, but that's about it and that's fair since everyone has the same right. If you don't like smoke in a bar, drink at home or find a "non-smoking" bar. If there aren't enough people demanding such a place to make it profitable then it looks like the marketplace has decided that your minority isn't "putting it's money where it's mouth is" and that's that. The point is, I deal with ALL of these above listed things from other people and therefore think that people can do me the same courtesy. If people want to call the police over that then so be it...hasn't happened yet.

JMHO,

John

 

[Baron Kurtz]

As i say, they should have thrown you out.

Going into someone's place and disregarding their not-very-challenging requests is simply rude.

bk

 

[JohnTheGreek]

Had I been a guest in someone's home, you would be absolutely right. However, I was a paying customer in a business "open to the public" and sitting in an open area that amounted to a wooden deck overlooking a stream. Further, there were no other customers and the owner of the restaurant smokes...likely in his own restaurant. The waiter was just being a jerk to his own customer and riding a power trip by enforcing a stupid law in an area where it needn't be enforced. The only irrational breach of protocol came from the waiter who might have been tipped very well had he been accomodating or even rational. As he was, I think he was tipped a big fat nothing.

Life is too short to comply with silly laws and the spineless masses who think they can enforce them. I am no elitist, mind you, I think everyone is above this...or should be. If we don't rebel against this sort of rubbish its only a matter of time before we wont be able to smoke even on the public street. The day that happens I'm going to start suing every ugly person I see because they have caused me some abstract displeasure akin to second hand smoke.

lol

Best,

John

 

[Phil]

I could say the very same about murder. Doesn't mean I'm right. The fact of the matter is, smoking is becoming more frowned upon than before. And yes, you were the customer, and in ideal culture, "The customer is always right". However, that's ideal culture which is rarely like real culture. Also, you must see it from the resturaunt's point of view. It's against the LAW to smoke in publis areas such as resturaunts (do correct me if I'm wrong). Although the punishment for breaking the law may only be a fine. That's still money they have to pay because they were an establishment allowing someone to break the law. Unfortunately this can't be as romantacised as Prohibition. There are no, "smoke-easies", not everyone enjoys the smell or taste of smoke.

 

[JohnTheGreek]

A SMOKE-EASY! This is the answer...time to open them in the US.

Actually, I'm not sure it is illegal to smoke outside on the patio of a restaurant if it is 25 feet or more from an entrance. What I find annoying about this sort of legislation is the degree to which it tramples on the private property rights of restaurant and bar owners. Kurtz has adopted a position based on the idea that I should respect the wishes of the owners and was being a bad guest in the incident described. Well, the government doesn't have very much respect for the owners or they would offer them the right to do as they damn well pleased with their own business and property. Honestly, if owners find it more profitable to allow smoking, they should have the right to do so. If they are willing to pay a premium (in terms of lost profits) for allowing smoking in an environment of those who have a distaste for smoke, then they will be less propserous than the "non-smoking" bars and restaurants and ultimately be run out of business. In short, the governement is either ensuring what the majority of people DON"T want or they are adding a ridiculous bureaucratic element to what the market will already accomplish. Pure silliness and more than a little oppressive.

John

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Believe me, i'm all for anyone being able to do whatever they want to themselves. (And i think the better choice would be for business owners to have their own rules) You want to pump your veins full of heroin or cocaine? Smoke yourself into hunger crazed frenzy? You want to flay yourself? Mutilate or annihilate yourself even? That's fine by me.

But if someone tells you not to do it in *their* place of business you should stop. There's no point arguing that businesses should have the choice while also arguing that you should be able to disregard the instructions of the business Re: your behaviour. Regardless of the reasons for being asked to stop smoking (imposed law or choice of owner), in this case the customer is undeniably wrong. For example, my local brewpub voluntarily banned cigar and pipe smoking many years ago. There are prominent signs reminding customers of this reality. Now, is the man who furtively smokes a pipe, hiding it under the table when any employee comes past, correct or is he in the wrong?

It's a sad fact that to be able to function in society we need sometimes to suppress our urge to do whatever we wish. This is commonly referred to as 'being an adult'.

bk

 

[Edward]

Had I been a guest in someone's home, you would be absolutely right. However, I was a paying customer in a business "open to the public" and sitting in an open area that amounted to a wooden deck overlooking a stream. Further, there were no other customers and the owner of the restaurant smokes...likely in his own restaurant. The waiter was just being a jerk to his own customer and riding a power trip by enforcing a stupid law in an area where it needn't be enforced. The only irrational breach of protocol came from the waiter who might have been tipped very well had he been accomodating or even rational. As he was, I think he was tipped a big fat nothing.

Life is too short to comply with silly laws and the spineless masses who think they can enforce them. I am no elitist, mind you, I think everyone is above this...or should be. If we don't rebel against this sort of rubbish its only a matter of time before we wont be able to smoke even on the public street. The day that happens I'm going to start suing every ugly person I see because they have caused me some abstract displeasure akin to second hand smoke.

lol

Best,

John

I think you're being a touch unfair on the waiter. Over here, venues which fail to enforce the ban will be fined or otherwise penalised; I should imagined there may well be something the same where you are.