sick and tired of new scrap appliances.

[GoldenEraFan]

This thread basically sums up the opinion I've had of how things have been made since the day I was born. Here's my rant. I grew up in the '90s and basically was swamped with cheap plastics. The apartment I grew up in was basically a time-capsule from the mid-1980's, which still had that cheap disposable feeling to it, though we did use our 1984 Whirlpool refrigerator (off-white with a fake wood handle) for a good 20 something years. I recall the edge of it starting to pit with rust from years of condensation though. The major problem I find is that we've put computers in everything. Whenever an appliance or car breaks down now, it's always the computer and since fixing a computer chip has apparently become "difficult" it's become the norm to just throw it away and buy another one. It's all business of course, why build reliable stuff that will last forever when you can make junk and force people to keep buying it. Then again, companies offer warranties so what's the point of making junk if it'll be replaced or fixed for free and no profit to the company? I'm in my 20s, grew up with computers and yet I still find the fact that everything is computer run a bit unsettling. My current phone is a 2007 Samsung and does all I need it to do, make phone calls. On the subject of cars, I live in the city and don't need one, but our family car is a 2000 Honda Odyssey. The entertainment feature? No navigation system, no duel overhead DVD players, just an old fashioned CD player/radio. Now in truth, cars of 2012 have been really impressing me with their designs. Edges, curves and chrome are starting to come back, but these things are so technology heavy it's hard to even consider them "automobiles" rather than computers on wheels. I watched a review of the new Nissan Leaf, which I consider a nice looking car, but when the man in the video turned the car on, it sounded like he turned on a Windows Vista, complete with the little musical que they give computers. And clothes? I'm sure every fedora lounge member knows how poorly made most clothes are today, so I'll cut to the chase, all my vintage attire looks, fits and feels better than anything modern I've worn. One last word on comparison of old and new stuff: luxury items. There doesn't seem to be a quality difference anymore, luxury just refers to the label. In a recent article on the 100th anniversary of the Titanic disaster, they talked about finding a 1910's era alligator pocketbook, and compared it with the current most expensive alligator pocket book from the same company and claimed that the 1910's pocketbook was far superior in quality. I guess today it's brand name over brand quality.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Our washing machine is on it's last leg. It needs a bearing & said bearing costs more than a new washer. The machine is only a dozen years old!

 

[jamespowers]

Our washing machine is on it's last leg. It needs a bearing & said bearing costs more than a new washer. The machine is only a dozen years old!

I know what you mean. Mine went a few months ago and cost me $150 to fix. Smart of them to use a plastic gear to engage the washer basket. :eusa_doh:

 

[William Stratford]

I know what you mean. Mine went a few months ago and cost me $150 to fix. Smart of them to use a plastic gear to engage the washer basket. :eusa_doh:

Had a washing machine break about a year ago, when it broke free of its mountings and decided to bang out some death metal when I set it spinning......but when I tried to fix it myself, I found that the mountings where plastic and the bolts were hardened steel (so I could not drill them out). Piece of (grrrr)

 

[Edward]

Its not that the Chinese cannot make these things last they can like anyone else, it's just that they dont want to. Its the bosses and culture that prevent it.

That's simply not true. Traditional Chinese crafts and workmanship are among the best in the world. The reason you see so much rubbish being made in China is for no reason other than the Western companies which have identified, maybe even created, a market for the same can maximise their profit margins by outsourcing manufacturing of their rubbish in China, and the Chinese, being the ultimate capitalists, are only too happy to take their money.

I think you are confusing Taiwan (a developed nation) with undeveloped nations like China and Vietnam.

I can't speak to Vietnam, but it is factually incorrect to paint China as 'backward' in this way. There certainly are areas of terribly poverty and deprivation (as in so many countries, including in the West. Here in London, while millions were being spent on Liz Windsor's jubilee, there are kids living under the poverty line with rickets). However, in many respects China is one of the most advanced nations in the world.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I know what you mean. Mine went a few months ago and cost me $150 to fix. Smart of them to use a plastic gear to engage the washer basket. :eusa_doh:

The Boys From Marketing will tell you that plastic gear is a *good* thing -- "Whisper-quiet operation!"

My washer has cut-steel gears in a permanent sealed-in-oil casing, and it's 78 years old this year. A little noise, I can live with.

That's simply not true. Traditional Chinese crafts and workmanship are among the best in the world. The reason you see so much rubbish being made in China is for no reason other than the Western companies which have identified, maybe even created, a market for the same can maximise their profit margins by outsourcing manufacturing of their rubbish in China, and the Chinese, being the ultimate capitalists, are only too happy to take their money.

Exactly. It's not that it's somehow impossible to build quality products. It's that it's cheaper to convince the public they don't need quality products. And the whole prison/slave-labor thing? "Oh, you should see how Those People *usually* live!"

 

[Edward]

Exactly. It's not that it's somehow impossible to build quality products. It's that it's cheaper to convince the public they don't need quality products. And the whole prison/slave-labor thing? "Oh, you should see how Those People *usually* live!"

Hopefully the tide will turn - I remember when it was only the socially conscious churches and "dirty, liberal hippy types" that cared about fairly traded tea and coffee, or cotton - now those are pretty much mainstream over here. It is, however, amazing and depressing what a lot of folks are prepared to rationalise rather than inconvenience themselves somewhat.

 

[William Stratford]

It's not that it's somehow impossible to build quality products. It's that it's cheaper to convince the public they don't need quality products.

Its also that industrialisation needs a continual turn-over of products to stay in business. When it was artisans, they would manage on a steady trickle of new sales , topped up with quite a few repairs. But with factories, they have to keep churning their widgets out (and thus the ones already being owned need to be discarded, whether because they break or are "last seasons model", so that people will pay for the new widgets ) otherwise the factories go out of business.

Thus is the insanity of basing a society around the economy, rather than the economy around the society. It is also why the turkeys (factories) will never vote for Christmas (durable products that last decades rather than months). So the question then becomes; how do we switch to such an economy when the powerhouses of consumerism (who are also the big employers) are diametrically opposed to such......the answer to which is that an economic collapse would actually be a good thing (rather than what the in-the-pockets-of-business politicians tell us) because it would remove the key impediment (industrialisation) that keeps us in the loony low-quality/high-turnover market.

But when I say that, I get accused of being a communist (by idiots who have no idea that politics is not just a squabble between freemarkets and socialism).

Gah.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Unless a sudden plague wipes out 99 percent of the population and civilization has to start over again from scratch, I don't see much chance of a real, meaningful, profound change happening -- there are too many vested interests keeping the whole modern system propped up. They've got theirs, and they're not gonna rest until they've got yours, too. As long as the brainwashing holds out, as long as people jump up and down with excitement over the idea of a telephone that actually tells them, in its own cutie-pie voice, where the nearest $6 frappuccino can be found, there's no hope.

All any of us can do, as individuals, is flatly refuse to go along. As I've said elsewhere, we might very well be overcome by the tide, but that doesn't mean we have to be swept along with it.

 

[William Stratford]

I know what you mean, there Lizzie. It just irks me that the things I care about are being crushed by something that in the deepest sense cares about nothing but is just an insatiable appetite. Its not my nature to tolerate bullies, and they are amongst the worst, but like you say we are largely powerless against them. I suppose I can hope that the economy collapses long enough and deep enough for people to realise this....but that will be an awful painful lesson for a lot of folks.

 

[59Lark]

dear loungers its six months later and that 1959 toaster is still going everyday, and in the shop in the last six months I have probably brought back at least 68 dead old sewing machines and restored them to work again in addition to fixing more modern ones, am talking forties to sixties as an average. 59LARK

 

[Shangas]

Been a while since I saw this thread.

The comments on Page 15, re. China, got me thinking.

Yes, China has a terrible reputation at the moment, for producing cheap, junky, throwaway items that don't last and which break if you drop them three inches onto an eiderdown pillow.

But that doesn't mean it was always like that.

As other members said, China once manufactured some of the best products in the world.

I would not necessarily call China an "Undeveloped" country. I'd say it's Developed...but only in certain areas. This, you cannot deny. Big cities such as Nanking, Shanghai and Beijing are booming. But just a few miles out in the country, and you'll soon realise that people are STILL living in ways which haven't changed for CENTURIES.

The reason for this is rather obvious. China is SUCH a huge country, geographically, that even today, it takes a long time for change to reach everywhere. Is China a developing or undeveloped country? No.

Is it a developed country? The answer is "Yes, but...".

As I believe LizzieMaine correctly analysed, the issue is NOT that China produces products of questionable quality. It's not even the issue of whether or not the companies themselves really care.

It's more an issue of the fact that these days, and I'll be honest...PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW WHAT QUALITY IS.
Quality has for so long just disappeared from the marketplace that in this day and age, unless you're REALLY RICH, chances are, you probably wouldn't realise you're being ripped off. Now this may sound rude, but it's true. What I mean is that, unless you can AFFORD better and HAVE better, then you don't realise what BETTTER IS. Because most people are just satisfied with "What they have" or "What's on offer", so to speak, they don't realise that they can have better things. They think what they have IS 'the better thing', when it isn't.
They simply don't recognise quality for what it is, for the pure fact that they don't recognise QUALITY, full-stop!

One example that comes to mind is the Singer 160 sewing machine.

People THINK it's great quality. And maybe it is. But it's poorly built, out of plastic, and parts which won't last. One crack, one drop, one electrical failure, and that machine is a paperweight.

On the other hand, a Singer 66 made in 1910 might weigh five times as much as a modern Singer, but THAT will NEVER break down because it's been built to last. THAT is quality.

People don't recognise quality when they see it because they don't know what real quality is.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Going right hand in hand with that is the ultimate bamboozlement -- the idea that common household appliances *need* all these bogus features. Take an electric mixer, something most people have in their kitchen. You could buy a modern one, with handy push-button settings for different mixer speeds, and you could use it for a couple of years until those buttons crack or the contacts get dirty or the tiny little underpowered motor burns up on a particularly thick batter. And then you throw it away and buy one that has some kind of computerized chip in it that promises even greater enhancements, and you go thru the same process again.

Or, you use your mother's or your grandmother's old Sunbeam. It has a big, powerful motor, a cast-metal casing -- and it doesn't have fancy push button settings. Instead, there's a rheostat you have to set yourself to select the speed you want. And you aren't stuck with the settings they give you, either -- you can set it anywhere along a continuous range from off to full on, for any speed you need for the job you have. This means you actually have to think a bit about what you're doing, you can't just punch in the button and daydream. But as long as you drop a little oil in the lubrication points once in a while and keep the unit clean, you'll never have to buy another mixer as long as you live.

Now, who's the chump? Can you honestly say you really *need* those fancy push-button settings?

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

That's simply not true. Traditional Chinese crafts and workmanship are among the best in the world.

They just reserve those skills for churning out fake and counterfeit items. While the world of antiques and collectibles has always been plagued with that problem, in the past such fakes were noticeable to a discerning eye. But nowadays they're practically seamless, even fooling experts. At least one such manufacturer boasted that they can copy practically anything.

 

[splintercellsz]

People wonder why I prefer older appliances to new. I reply, "Back then, it was Quality, not Quantity. Now, it's Quantity, NOT Quality."

Also, there have been some cases where the actual modern manufacturer has stated that they build products to fail after a set amount of time, in order to have the user purchase more of their product. It's pretty sad.

 

[jamespowers]

Or, you use your mother's or your grandmother's old Sunbeam. It has a big, powerful motor, a cast-metal casing -- and it doesn't have fancy push button settings. Instead, there's a rheostat you have to set yourself to select the speed you want. And you aren't stuck with the settings they give you, either -- you can set it anywhere along a continuous range from off to full on, for any speed you need for the job you have. This means you actually have to think a bit about what you're doing, you can't just punch in the button and daydream. But as long as you drop a little oil in the lubrication points once in a while and keep the unit clean, you'll never have to buy another mixer as long as you live.

Now, who's the chump? Can you honestly say you really *need* those fancy push-button settings?

I actually have two Sunbeam Mix Masters. One I got for free because some nut replaced a perfectly good one with a new hunk of junk. lol lol I can't say no to free.
I am even having my Grandmother's GE Triple Whip fixed. It still works but needs new brushes and oiling etc. The motor on those can tear through anything.

 

[Shangas]

Going right hand in hand with that is the ultimate bamboozlement -- the idea that common household appliances *need* all these bogus features. Take an electric mixer, something most people have in their kitchen. You could buy a modern one, with handy push-button settings for different mixer speeds, and you could use it for a couple of years until those buttons crack or the contacts get dirty or the tiny little underpowered motor burns up on a particularly thick batter. And then you throw it away and buy one that has some kind of computerized chip in it that promises even greater enhancements, and you go thru the same process again.

Or, you use your mother's or your grandmother's old Sunbeam. It has a big, powerful motor, a cast-metal casing -- and it doesn't have fancy push button settings. Instead, there's a rheostat you have to set yourself to select the speed you want. And you aren't stuck with the settings they give you, either -- you can set it anywhere along a continuous range from off to full on, for any speed you need for the job you have. This means you actually have to think a bit about what you're doing, you can't just punch in the button and daydream. But as long as you drop a little oil in the lubrication points once in a while and keep the unit clean, you'll never have to buy another mixer as long as you live.

Now, who's the chump? Can you honestly say you really *need* those fancy push-button settings?

Your talk about Sunbeam reminded me of something that's happened to me more than once.

I do a fair bit of baking. Cakes, puddings, pies, and what-not.

On two separate occasions, I had two cousins at one time, and at the other time, one of my aunts, staying at our house for a holiday.

In the first instance, I was making Sticky Date Pudding for dessert. My cousins came into the kitchen once I'd shoved the pudding into the oven and I was cleaning things up. And one of them asks me:

"Where's your cake-mixer?"

"...what mixer?"

"You know, the electric cake-mixer? You put the stuff in the bowl and it mixes it around for you?"

"Oh!...I don't have one".

"YOU DON'T HAVE ONE?"

"No. I did it all by hand".

"HOW!?"

"Uh...with a spoon, and a hand-cranked egg-whisk..."

She just stared at me, dumbfounded. She couldn't conceive of making an ENTIRE CAKE by hand. It was just beyond her that I didn't use a single iota of electronic aid at all!

Fast forward about eighteen months...

I got back from a trip to Europe. In the meantime, my aunt was staying at my house with a cousin of mine (they were visiting from overseas) and my aunt decided to extend her stay for a week, so that she could spend time with me (she's a really sweet lady!).

So we got to talking one night, and she was telling me about how everything had been while I was away, and she goes:

"By the way, I was doing some baking" (aunty loves baking!)... "And I couldn't find your cake-mixer!"

Again, I told her, "I don't have one!".

And again, she couldn't believe that I do ALL my cakes by hand.

Apparently, such a thing is beyond comprehension in this electromechanical world of ours. Despite the fact that I do this stuff all the time, they can't believe it.

It's been three months since then. And I STILL don't have a cake-mixer...

 

[jamespowers]

It's been three months since then. And I STILL don't have a cake-mixer...

I might go the old way but I am not mixing that stuff by hand.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

That was one of my favorite "toys" when I was a kid. I wasn't into baking, I just liked playing with the egg beater.
Used to frequently catch hell for stealing it from the kitchen drawer.

 

[jamespowers]

That was one of my favorite "toys" when I was a kid. I wasn't into baking, I just liked playing with the egg beater.
Used to frequently catch hell for stealing it from the kitchen drawer.

Then we wondered why our grandparents had arthritis.