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Ship John
- Thread starter Boyo
- Start date
marker2037
Practically Family
- Messages
- 834
- Location
- Curacao/NJ, USA
2023 lol
- Messages
- 16,803
Was just going thru the comments on the IG. I wonder how all these hard working laborers are gonna get the job done until their jackets get forged.
It's especially amusing how some people are genuinely salty about not being able to pre-order their costume. Oh well...
It's especially amusing how some people are genuinely salty about not being able to pre-order their costume. Oh well...
I have what I believe to be some relevant commentary to add, but I want to say up front: I consider both Mike and Stephen (who run the company) to be friends. I'm sure that colors my opinion some, but I feel like I know them well enough to speak to the high quality of their character. I'm not at paid shill, I pay for my stuff from them just like everybody else, with a Visa card and a very patient spouse. 
Mike is the face of the brand and the Wills Jacket is his concept. He is a blue collar guy to the core and grew up working on oyster boats. He was working as a stone mason when he designed the first incarnation of the Wills jacket. Whether you like the design or not, his goal was to make a thicker jacket that would hold up to the abrasive nature of working with stone (After spending several months this summer building a concrete retaining wall, I can testify to how hard that stuff is on your clothes). Stephen is much more quiet and has been a pattern maker for 3 decades - 25 years for Levi's. Neither of these guys is outwardly wealthy. They make a good living, but they're not driving sports cars or buying million dollar homes.
My point is that these are two smart, socially conscious people who genuinely care about paying a fair wage and making things in America. They try to take care of their staff. They use American made materials whenever possible. The pricing reflects that. Their products aren't inexpensive, but when you look at the broad market for American (and Japanese) made heritage goods, they're not exorbitant either. Someone mentioned their collabs with Dehen, and from what I have looked up, the Ship John versions cost the same as the Dehen versions. They are a small shop, and these kind of collabs allow them to offer more items, and also to do business with friends. Wesco and Langlitz are a similar arrangement - those guys are friends and they love promoting each other's businesses. Shouldn't we all want our friends to be successful and lift them up when we can?
I won't speak to style as that is a truly subjective thing. I can totally understand that people don't like the styling or don't get why a canvas jacket can cost $550. It took me a year from the first time I handled a Wills to be comfortable paying "leather jacket money" for a canvas jacket. I have one now and I can tell you I don't regret it. You'll pay similar money for Iron Heart clothing, and not everybody gets that either. All I can say is that the jacket is functional to wear - the action back makes it easier to move in, the angled hand warmer pockets are more ergonomic for stuffing your hands into, and the snaps are more convenient than buttons. It's Mike and Stephen's design, and either you like it or you don't.
As for blue collar effectiveness, I'll say this: Mike is a blue collar guy, through and through. Personally, I don't wear my Wills for working in, but some people do. Mike encourages everyone who buys their stuff to beat it up, although admittedly I have yet to do that. Is it really relevant whether or not people do manual labor in these clothes?
The team at Ship John created a product that became wildly successful, and they have legitimately agonized over how to fairly distribute it. They get nasty emails every month from frustrated customers, and they stress about the growing pains of trying to cope with tremendous demand as a very small shop (less than a dozen people). This new ordering system is not a money grab, it's their best attempt at giving people the opportunity to get a jacket and reduce the frustration their customers experience. Nothing more than that.
Mike is the face of the brand and the Wills Jacket is his concept. He is a blue collar guy to the core and grew up working on oyster boats. He was working as a stone mason when he designed the first incarnation of the Wills jacket. Whether you like the design or not, his goal was to make a thicker jacket that would hold up to the abrasive nature of working with stone (After spending several months this summer building a concrete retaining wall, I can testify to how hard that stuff is on your clothes). Stephen is much more quiet and has been a pattern maker for 3 decades - 25 years for Levi's. Neither of these guys is outwardly wealthy. They make a good living, but they're not driving sports cars or buying million dollar homes.
My point is that these are two smart, socially conscious people who genuinely care about paying a fair wage and making things in America. They try to take care of their staff. They use American made materials whenever possible. The pricing reflects that. Their products aren't inexpensive, but when you look at the broad market for American (and Japanese) made heritage goods, they're not exorbitant either. Someone mentioned their collabs with Dehen, and from what I have looked up, the Ship John versions cost the same as the Dehen versions. They are a small shop, and these kind of collabs allow them to offer more items, and also to do business with friends. Wesco and Langlitz are a similar arrangement - those guys are friends and they love promoting each other's businesses. Shouldn't we all want our friends to be successful and lift them up when we can?
I won't speak to style as that is a truly subjective thing. I can totally understand that people don't like the styling or don't get why a canvas jacket can cost $550. It took me a year from the first time I handled a Wills to be comfortable paying "leather jacket money" for a canvas jacket. I have one now and I can tell you I don't regret it. You'll pay similar money for Iron Heart clothing, and not everybody gets that either. All I can say is that the jacket is functional to wear - the action back makes it easier to move in, the angled hand warmer pockets are more ergonomic for stuffing your hands into, and the snaps are more convenient than buttons. It's Mike and Stephen's design, and either you like it or you don't.
As for blue collar effectiveness, I'll say this: Mike is a blue collar guy, through and through. Personally, I don't wear my Wills for working in, but some people do. Mike encourages everyone who buys their stuff to beat it up, although admittedly I have yet to do that. Is it really relevant whether or not people do manual labor in these clothes?
The team at Ship John created a product that became wildly successful, and they have legitimately agonized over how to fairly distribute it. They get nasty emails every month from frustrated customers, and they stress about the growing pains of trying to cope with tremendous demand as a very small shop (less than a dozen people). This new ordering system is not a money grab, it's their best attempt at giving people the opportunity to get a jacket and reduce the frustration their customers experience. Nothing more than that.
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This is the way. The economic solution is to raise the price.
I don't think anyone would even blink except for the fact that they are hyped and sell out fast. It reminds me when shake shack was one little spot in a park where people lined up for hours to get a burger. Was it a good burger? Sure was it worth waiting 2hrs for? No. But once you get that level of buzz around something people are going to have lots of opinions and some not necessarily nice things to say. Some of the comments on IG are outrageous, people drive never experienced disappointment or minor inconvenience.
In the end regardless of whether people want to accept it, it's fashion. When Gucci charges $500 for a Tshirt nobody is discussing the value you get out of that. These guys have a product people want and they do not have a mass production operation. It's a good problem to have, im impressed by their business position and what they've achieved. The price isn't crazy compared to many other coats out there. Would I wait a year or more for one of these, absolutely not but that's just me.
Bfd70
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 4,282
- Location
- Traverse city
^good post. Nothing I have posted was meant as a dig on their character.
I probably sound like a fanboi now, but Mike recently had a livestream about how people were selling their Wills Jackets on eBay for up to $800 (and how that bums him out). This release today was partially intended to combat that kind of thing. He genuinely doesn't want people to pay above retail if possible.
I sold by black wills (pics in this thread) because it was such a bitch to take on and off without a lining. The new version is cotton lined, but I feel that 24oz is still too heavy for everyday use.
Kind of reminds me of how I used to wear 5oz, 7-8lb leather jackets years ago.
Kind of reminds me of how I used to wear 5oz, 7-8lb leather jackets years ago.
There's so much subjective bias (and personal financial condition) baked into "worth" its difficult, if not impossible, to have an objective discussion. I obviously don't agree, but a non-enthusiast could take the extreme position that all the clothing we discuss on this forum sold at retail (excluding the vintage stuff and eBay scores) aren't "worth" their cost. Is an Ultra Heavy Weight Iron Heart flannel "worth" $350? Is a Himel "worth" $2.5k? Is an RMC J24 "worth" nearly $3k? I think yes, others may think no. Suffice to say, based on everything I've read and seen online, I think the Wills is worth the price of admission.
You know the guys, you like the product, it's only natural. They are clearly trying to be fair.
They seem like down to earth people. I see that particular jacket pop up in my IG feed often, I like it but its not really my thing. I prefer the langlitz collabs they've done. I'm at the point now where I'm unlikely to wait or "battle" online for a consumer product unless it's something I'm truly obsessed (pair of Roy Jeans but those days are gone) so I don't begrudge anyone doing the same.
I have a friend who's a tailor. I used to have this discussion about price with him all the time. The solution for a small business that has heavy demand is to raise the price. You satisfy your customers better without exhausting yourself in the chaos. You're able to offer better service, quality control on lower volume. Particularly in a luxury business.
I get why they probably want to avoid that for a number of reasons but it sure would make their life easier plus if people are paying 40%+ on eBay it would be better the business keeps those profits in my opinion.
I agree @Ayeteael if you like that jacket the price is reasonable. I don't remember the price but years ago i bought a barbour jacket collab with a japanese designer. It had a motorcycle vibe to it but the barbour construction and materials, its black you wouldnt think it was a barbour which appealed to me. I remember thinking at the time i was paying way too much for a waxed jacket and it was more than what SJ is charging here but i love it, ive worn it a lot and still wear it. Worth every penny.
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- 16,803
My comments on the matter aren't to be taken seriously.
I wonder if I can get these in dead stock cone mills?
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Man that RMC dude is a living budha he is completely zen about your posts.... you must try harder!My comments on the matter aren't to be taken seriously.
As with Finecreek you worshipped them in equal amount with your criticism so they still hang in the balance just like their unmatching front panel graining. Beside probably they just simply highlight the compliment and finecreeked the criticism.
Just a follow up. I threw this in the washing machine hot, and dried it hot (The Horror) It only got a little lighter in color. It is nice and trim now, good thing I lost some belly fat from all the swimming. 27" is fine with me in length. I would see how it holds up to manual labor, but I quit doing that, and I'm not going body surfing in it either.
I like it.
Came out.
Chest 23"
Shoulder 19"
Sleeve 26"
Back 27"
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What not even an honorable mention for GW?My comments on the matter aren't to be taken seriously.
El Marro
My Mail is Forwarded Here
- Messages
- 3,591
- Location
- California
I learned very early on not to tell anybody how much I paid for one of my leather jackets. The average person can not fathom this information and they don’t know how to process it. This discussion then turns from what a cool jacket I’m wearing to whether I should be institutionalized.
I remember when you bought that, and your issues with the length. I was between sizes on the Ramblin' Jacket, and I actually bought both and kept them for a long while. Interestingly, the Large fits me more like a jacket, but the XL was very much Chore Coat length on me. I finally ended up selling the XL because I preferred the closer fit of the large. For what it's worth, even the Large doesn't fit me like a Type 3 - my Iron Heart Type 3's are more tapered in the body and look very different.
I think this jacket looks best on slim people with long torsos and a bit less width in the shoulders.
I think that looks great on your build. It's definitely not a short bodied type 3, but it doesn't need to be - it's kind of it's own thing.
Yes! This is so true. I am way too embarrassed to try and explain the price of these things to others. People struggle to understand that everyone's priorities can differ so much. My brother spends thousands on TVs, stereos, etc, and even he admits that he gets very little return when he tries to sell the old ones. At least high end jackets retain value if you decide to sell.
