SAS Berets

[dit dah]

The photo referred to is of Reg Seekings and Johnny Cooper

Actually the photo I was referring to was of Jim Almonds and Bob Lilley with varous members of the LRDG, you're right that it wasn't taken whilst operational.

I'll try and find it and post it.

See! Common as muck these white berets!

 

[Dudleydoright]

Well, photos of them are at least !!

 

[Corto]

I just took a look through my bookshelf, and while it isn't a photo, there's a color plate that includes an SAS trooper wearing a white beret in the Osprey book "The Special Air Service" (Men at Arms Series, 116) by James Shortt and Angus McBride.

I'd scan it for you, but alas, I have no scanner.

 

[RudyN]

Sort of off topic a bit, but I was able to have a friend pick me up a SAS Beret (the tan one) in the 1980s when he was in London. It was one of the current at the time issue.

 

[Dudleydoright]

Yep, they're two a penny from silvermans. I assure you that 99% of the ones on Ebay are genuine maker berets and badges but almost none of them have been used and worn by 'Badged' members of the regiment. It's the sort of thing you tend to keep or pass on to an interested friend or their son.
Stable belts are much the same thing but like berets, why buy them if you didn't earn and wear them in anger ? Especially non worn ones ? If you ever see anyone wearing them outside of a barracks, then they are probably Walts. At least 95% of the ones you see at Remembrance services on the 11.11 are not genuine either. Apart from a few WW2 vets, it's pretty much agreed amongst ex SF guys that the beret is never worn in public ( in keeping with the post WW2 concept of secrecy.)

Dave

 

[Trotsky]

Dave,

fftopic: Please settle down. Some of us really like Militaria and enjoy purchasing things like unworn SAS berets. I've noticed you get quite the chip whenever somebody mentions things like reenacting and buying.

I know, I know, I was not in the SAS, or even the British forces. I enjoy collecting and purchasing their things from WWII and beyond, however. The chap above got a good deal, I believe. You bring alot of good things to this forum. But please, respect what other people do a little more.

On topic

I have Brian L. Davis's book on WWII British uniforms. I am pretty sure there is a studio picture of a SAS trooper in the white beret in conjunction with some LRDG men. He looks...... embarrassed, frankly. I can see why they transitioned so quick. Nothing helps to squelch unit pride like crappy headgear. Oh, and fights!

Yep, they're two a penny from silvermans. I assure you that 99% of the ones on Ebay are genuine maker berets and badges but almost none of them have been used and worn by 'Badged' members of the regiment. It's the sort of thing you tend to keep or pass on to an interested friend or their son.
Stable belts are much the same thing but like berets, why buy them if you didn't earn and wear them in anger ? Especially non worn ones ? If you ever see anyone wearing them outside of a barracks, then they are probably Walts. At least 95% of the ones you see at Remembrance services on the 11.11 are not genuine either. Apart from a few WW2 vets, it's pretty much agreed amongst ex SF guys that the beret is never worn in public ( in keeping with the post WW2 concept of secrecy.)

Dave

 

[Dudleydoright]

I take and hear your comments. I respect your view and appreciate that you are not alone. I have different views. I appreciate that as a civvy you cannot possibly understand my point of view. It is a touchy point with me as you have read.

I was trying to point out to RudyN that having a 'genuine' SAS beret might not mean a great deal as they are as common as muck. I'm also intrigued as to why you might want a new beret and badge that hadn't been worn by a member of the Regiment. Genuine memorabilia and serious collectors I do get but that I don't.

Dave

 

[Trotsky]

I can understand, but I know a guy with the same attitude. He calls me a "life-long civilian" like it's an insult. My best friend served for 20 years in three armies. He does not constantly spit the word civvy like its an insult at me. We share a love of militaria, specifically British, but that branches out to everything else. He contribute so much to any event and/or conversation because of that view and knowledge.

All I am saying is Dave, that you bring so much to the table here. I know your feelings towards us "civvys". But, this is a strong community and we like having you here, you know an awful lot about all things British. Just try to be cool with the comments, that's all I am asking.

 

[BellyTank]

I have this book too.
There is an illustration of an L Detachment Sergeant.

The author refers to the white beret as the "Chasseur beret".


B
T

I just took a look through my bookshelf, and while it isn't a photo, there's a color plate that includes an SAS trooper wearing a white beret in the Osprey book "The Special Air Service" (Men at Arms Series, 116) by James Shortt and Angus McBride.

I'd scan it for you, but alas, I have no scanner.

 

[Dudleydoright]

I can understand, but I know a guy with the same attitude. He calls me a "life-long civilian" like it's an insult. My best friend served for 20 years in three armies. He does not constantly spit the word civvy like its an insult at me. We share a love of militaria, specifically British, but that branches out to everything else. He contribute so much to any event and/or conversation because of that view and knowledge.

All I am saying is Dave, that you bring so much to the table here. I know your feelings towards us "civvys". But, this is a strong community and we like having you here, you know an awful lot about all things British. Just try to be cool with the comments, that's all I am asking.

I hear you Trot'. I will temper my comments. I don't use the word 'Civvy' as an insult by the way, I've been one myself these last 20 years ! I also like civvies - I married one and have two teenage ones - YUK !

Thanks for saying you think I do make some positive contributions I really like this forum. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here !

Enjoy the remainder of the weekend folks.
Dave

 

[Smithy]

I can understand where Dave is coming from. Tan berets and SAS badging are a dime a dozen here as well in the army surplus places (obviously to do with the NZSAS which is modelled on the British SAS - the beret and its badging is the same). I sure as eggs would never wear a tan beret (even without badging) as there is so much connotation and respect for the tan beret and what it stands for, plus you'd probably get your head knocked off if you did.

However I can understand the want to own an original which has providence from a collecting standpoint. It's the same as wanting to own an Irvin jacket which was worn by a named RAF pilot during ops or a Denison smock worn by a Para during Market Garden. Those are pieces of history. I wouldn't want to wear them but I wouldn't mind owning them.

 

[H.Johnson]

This thread started me looking through books of war time photographs of SAS and affiliated units (not that there are that many). What strikes me (and I can't say I had noticed it or thought about it before) is the range of tones that their berets have. In fact, as far as you can tell in amateur black and white photos taken under a range of conditions, they could almost be different coloured berets.

So, because the SAS took to wearing sand coloured parade berets when it was reconstituted post-war, are we on firm ground in assuming that the war time photographs showing a range of grey berets are, in fact, sand (or tan was some would have it)?

OK, the above is apparently nothing to do with the white issue beret but, just let us speculate why there are so many different tones. Fading due to sunlight or washing? You don't usually see other berets in contemporary photographs varying in tone so much. Also, where did the originally issued white berets go to? Suppose, just suppose, troopers 'home dyed' their white berets a darker colour. Overdying at unit level is noted in the CBI theatre as KD was dyed to a JG colour (Brayley & Ingram et al). I think it is at least possible (pending finding a suitable reference) that some of the lighter toned berets worn by original SAS members in black and white photographs could have been dyed 'in theatre' and have subsequently faded at different rates. Anyone who has experimented with cold tea as a dye will know that this is not impossible. Just a suggestion.

 

[Trotsky]

This thread started me looking through books of war time photographs of SAS and affiliated units (not that there are that many). What strikes me (and I can't say I had noticed it or thought about it before) is the range of tones that their berets have. In fact, as far as you can tell in amateur black and white photos taken under a range of conditions, they could almost be different coloured berets.

So, because the SAS took to wearing sand coloured parade berets when it was reconstituted post-war, are we on firm ground in assuming that the war time photographs showing a range of grey berets are, in fact, sand (or tan was some would have it)?

OK, the above is apparently nothing to do with the white issue beret but, just let us speculate why there are so many different tones. Fading due to sunlight or washing? You don't usually see other berets in contemporary photographs varying in tone so much. Also, where did the originally issued white berets go to? Suppose, just suppose, troopers 'home dyed' their white berets a darker colour. Overdying at unit level is noted in the CBI theatre as KD was dyed to a JG colour (Brayley & Ingram et al). I think it is at least possible (pending finding a suitable reference) that some of the lighter toned berets worn by original SAS members in black and white photographs could have been dyed 'in theatre' and have subsequently faded at different rates. Anyone who has experimented with cold tea as a dye will know that this is not impossible. Just a suggestion.

Interesting observation. Really interesting. rather than replace a perfectly good beret, just dye the damn thing, right? You have a point, and I wonder how much this was done.
The sand color beret was unofficial during the war, which will help explain the wide range of shades. Get it from a small Egyptian tailor rather than have it passed out, ala the Commandos.
If you look at photos and other documentation the sand color was in the minority by 1944 anyways, the group pictures and other sources have the red beret as the primary headgear (when the black beret wasn't in use on operations). Most guys in the 2nd SAS wore red, because the closest many of them got to the desert was seeing it in newsreels. So, by the end of the war, I can see white cum sand colored berets as really, really rare. Now I'm half tempted to buy a white beret and see what it looks like after a bath in khaki.

 

[Dudleydoright]

Maroon berets became the norm once the SAS had been pulled back to the UK and were being readied for Europe. It had something to do with a dislike of the smaller, private armies and the fact that the SAS were going to be carried to battle by parachuting and all airborne forces wore maroon. I think Paddy Mayne carried on wearing sand. Who was going to tell a Colonel of his physical and combat proven stature to take it off !

The dying of berets I seem to remember hearing or reading about. Certainly berets weren't worn in combat until Greece and that seems to be more of the Special Raiding Squadron (also known as the Special boat Section & Squadron). Anders Lassen was a well photographed adherent. Certainly on issue to British Forces at the time there was only the black beret for the Royal Tank Regt, the maroon of the Paras and the green of the Commandos (Army & Royal I think). Not sure about the Tam O' Shanter. Maybe later in the war as with the General Service beret.

Incidentally, the early Post-War 'SAS' was called the Artists Rifles and they wore maroon with the Mars & Minerva beret badge. Sand returned around the first Oman action late 50's.

I had the honour to meet several members of the wartime 'Originals' as well as other warriors from the Regiment. If you were to ask them about kit like clothing they would've looked at you like you were a numpty as ,for them, at the time, it was an irrelevance. They probably wouldn't have known or cared about whether or not a beret was dyed. On the other hand, ask them about weapons and vehicles and they talked with a familiarity of someone who had used those things the day before !! The fact that the lads would have been willing to wear a WHITE beret shows how badly they wanted to belong to the Reg' ! Perhaps it was meant as a Sickener !

Smithy, you understand me perfectly. I understand serious collectors of genuine memorabilia. Thanks for putting it across better than I ever will.

Cheers,
Dave

 

[dit dah]

Mr Doright and Mr Trotsky, I'm going to bang your heads together, bereted or otherwise!

Annoyingly I happen to agree with both of you. I can see why reenacting might puzzle and perplex the serving or exserving Forces man. However, I assume (because I do no partake myself) that the majority of people who participate do it out of genuine interest in, and respect for, the armed forces. Same probably goes for collectors. Battle and the men who have endured it will always hold fascination, and rightly so.

These battlefields, however, are sometimes seen by some as the only place in which anything heroic, dangerous or authentic takes place. I do not believe this to be the case. Mutual respect, as ever, is the order of the day.

"Walts" abound, it is true and they should be shown short thrift. Wearing medals that you have not been awarded is criminal and laying false claim to membership of a unit, especially at a remembrance service, is shameful. Peppering your conversation with references to your time over the water and on the Brecons is ridiculous schoolboy nonsense and will catch up with you.

Thought I'd throw my thoughts in as it t'was I who brought up the damned white beret.

Mr Johnson, as ever your insight dazzles and delights.

Mr Doright you display all the subtlety of that noble regiment in which you served, the shy and retiring Para Reg. Must think before opening fire

Group hug!

Anyway, when I was in Oman......................

 

[H.Johnson]

Wasn't it just 21 SAS that was the 'Artists Rifles'? Do they still parade at the Royal Academy of Art?

According to Geraghty (whose books have been around long enough to be corrected by Those Who Know) the sand coloured beret was standardised in 1950.

Your experiences of WW2 veterans coincides with mine. Rarely are they interested in the details of personal kit.

<Snip>
Incidentally, the early Post-War 'SAS' was called the Artists Rifles and they wore maroon with the Mars & Minerva beret badge. Sand returned around the first Oman action late 50's.

I had the honour to meet several members of the wartime 'Originals' as well as other warriors from the Regiment. If you were to ask them about kit like clothing they would've looked at you like you were a numpty as ,for them, at the time, it was an irrelevance. They probably wouldn't have known or cared about whether or not a beret was dyed. On the other hand, ask them about weapons and vehicles and they talked with a familiarity of someone who had used those things the day before !! The fact that the lads would have been willing to wear a WHITE beret shows how badly they wanted to belong to the Reg' ! Perhaps it was meant as a Sickener !
<Snip>

 

[dit dah]

Yes I think that Col. Brian Franks revived the disbanded SAS as a territorial unit, based on the Artists' Rifles which had been an Officer producing set up during the war. The new troopers (mostly ex. regulars), as has been said, wore the Mars & Minerva cap badge of the Artists and SAS shoulder titles.

 

[Dudleydoright]

Spot on Dit-dah !
21 SAS was created from the 1st & 2nd SAS Regts and reversing the digits. 21 'spawned' 22 and later 23. And boy, how they've changed individually !!

dave

 

[Smithy]

This thread started me looking through books of war time photographs of SAS and affiliated units (not that there are that many). What strikes me (and I can't say I had noticed it or thought about it before) is the range of tones that their berets have. In fact, as far as you can tell in amateur black and white photos taken under a range of conditions, they could almost be different coloured berets.

So, because the SAS took to wearing sand coloured parade berets when it was reconstituted post-war, are we on firm ground in assuming that the war time photographs showing a range of grey berets are, in fact, sand (or tan was some would have it)?

OK, the above is apparently nothing to do with the white issue beret but, just let us speculate why there are so many different tones. Fading due to sunlight or washing? You don't usually see other berets in contemporary photographs varying in tone so much. Also, where did the originally issued white berets go to? Suppose, just suppose, troopers 'home dyed' their white berets a darker colour. Overdying at unit level is noted in the CBI theatre as KD was dyed to a JG colour (Brayley & Ingram et al). I think it is at least possible (pending finding a suitable reference) that some of the lighter toned berets worn by original SAS members in black and white photographs could have been dyed 'in theatre' and have subsequently faded at different rates. Anyone who has experimented with cold tea as a dye will know that this is not impossible. Just a suggestion.

Fascinating post and very observant Mr Johnson. You've raised some very intersting possibilities. Thank you sir.

 

[H.Johnson]

I think it fascinating (well, I'm easily fascinated) in combining two apparently odd interests of mine, pre-Raphaelite art and military history, that the young Millais and Holman Hunt were among the early volunteers to The Artists Rifles.

Spot on Dit-dah !
21 SAS was created from the 1st & 2nd SAS Regts and reversing the digits. 21 'spawned' 22 and later 23. And boy, how they've changed individually !!

dave