road less traveled for jacket nuts? the N-2B flight jacket...am i crazy 4 loving it?

[CodeRed]

So funny, I have about a dozen leather jackets that are great, but I have just started thinking about a CWU 36/P & CWU 45/P in nomex by Alpha, which are still made in the USA. They arent all that expensive from what I can determine from EBay, I live in SoCal so the lightweight version seems like the way to go...but am I missing anything? As the Op stated..this is a road less traveled for me. Should I get an authentic one with the patches or a clean 80/90's version from Alpha? About to take the plunge, so any advise is most welcomed. Thx!

 

[Atticus Finch]

...I have just started thinking about a CWU 36/P & CWU 45/P in nomex...Should I get an authentic one with the patches or a clean 80/90's version from Alpha? About to take the plunge, so any advise is most welcomed. Thx!

I have never much cared for reproduction flight jackets. The only time I buy them is when an original of a particular jacket doesn't exist in my size. There are many, many original CWUs on ebay in all the issued sizes, so I can think of no reason to buy a repro. Heck...it isn't too hard to find an original CWU that hasn't been worn. Then you're getting the best of both worlds...an original that's as cherry as a new repro! You might not find an original with patches, though. Most patches are attached to CWUs with velcro...so, generally, the original patches are removed before the jacket is sold.

AF

 

[johnnyjohnny]

Nice looking coat, J2 and a clever idea, but you would have done better to have stuck my face on the pic. It would have been easier on the eyes. ---peacoat

legume jacket...i'll definitely stick your face somewhere with my photoshop skills on my next post ;P
am still waiting to see that lufthorse on you...will i have to concoct what i imagine it looks like in photoshop???

otherwise, it's been an eye opener as to the abuse nylon mil jackets can take, more so than leather in certain ways. also, unlike some folks on the lounge here who delight devising torture tests for their leathers to enhance aging, i can't bring myself to do that. so about the only jacket i have that has a great worn look is my one nylon so far, the alpha b-15...and nylon mil jackets, like leather, look great abused.

as said, the b-15 is incredibly built, but their penchant for shorting the length (i personally think it's that ole save money on fabric thing) is insane. i noticed the alpha REPLiCA b-15 was an inch or two longer in the torso, and was going to get one of those to rectify this short issue, but even from a reseller, these were going for $220. hence i went to the rothco N-2b, which is clearly a couple inches longer. i don't understand why alpha doesn't at least offer a 'long' option with their jackets, but since they don't they drove me over to rothco, which seems an excellent maker. in fact, they appear to be a cult jacket with the japanese, who are as nuts as most of us for mil jackets:

a few more pix from japanese sites showing they have taken the rothco military spec n-2b to great fashion status:

 

[ButteMT61]

JJ: Don't sweat some of the things like hot water treatment on leather. If you're carful, it's fine and works well. You gotta just take the plunge, but read about other's methods first. I've done it to three jackets now. The goat in my experience shrunk the most. FQHH almost none. Maybe 1/2 a single digit in size. So, from 50 to 49/49.5 when done.
It does loosen things up well. Just be patient and cautious.

 

[derleicaman]

As far as the CWU 36 or 45, I would advise going with the real deal and not one of the cheap civilian models. I have the Alpha civilian CWU 45/P and while it's an acceptable jacket and very warm, the military issue jackets are much better. The aramid (nomex) feels and looks very different from the civilian nylon. The lining is different on the milspec jackets. The CWU 45/P is almost cotton like, not nylon. The CWU 36/P is a very unusual "corded" type lining. I have snagged real issued CWU 45/Ps for as little as $50 off ebay. Just need to be patient and have some luck. I've seen them go as high as $300, especially the Desert Strom tan versions for some reason. The velcro patches are fun, as you can change up the look with different patches from various ebay vendors for around $5-$10 each. Also velcro American flags and even authentic service name tags. The only thing to be careful of is that the nomex thread used on the mil spec jackets can degrade over time. Also, be careful of jackets made by Isratex. They were made in Puerto Rico by an Israeli owned firm. Their jackets are inferior to other makers (ie. Propper) and the government ended up pressing criminal charges against the principals and the firm went out of business.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

OMG. it will be here tomorrow. in black.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

N-2B REViEW...(of the rothco version)

well, it arrived today, and a very nice piece that acquits the N-2B style well. hell, for $50 on amazon with $9.95 shipping, received in 4 days from order, it's great.

that said, let it be known that while this has a 'mil' tag number, this is milspec in design and materials perhaps, but not made for any military contract. in fact, it is NOT a purist jacket at all, having been made in china.

i love the way it looks, wears, the warmth...pretty much everything about it. it's black. the back hood can be folded so that it lays in a way virtually as warm behind the neck as a fur collar on a B-15 (or G-1 for the unitiated), without being used as a hood. it's really outrageous to get something this nice at $50. howevah, i attribute that mostly to the N-2B design, and the fact that rothco had the good sense to not go cheap on its rendition of it. i think the manufacture of this jacket could easily fulfill u.s. milspecs if made for contract and by u.s. companies.

again, that said, i would not compare it to an alpha. alpha is, as the name suggests, the best. whilst there are no faux pas or mistakes in the rothco, the alpha b-15 i own shows construction quality beyond the pale or any requirement...and my b-15 was a civi brown made to milspecs. whilst i was not in the market to spend several hundred bux on a top notch item, but rather a good item to be a throw in the car military spec/style function jacket, for purists or those who want a mil grade American made item, go with the alpha.

eXXXXXXXXXXXCept....that alpha shorts (pun) the length of their jackets. i'd have ordered an alpha to begin with, spent the extra dollaros if their N-2B had a couple of extra inches as a warmth parka jacket should, or if at least they offered 'long' sizes. but they don't. i can't accuse them of trying to nickle and dime customers by taking 1-2 inches off their products to save money for an American made product, however, i will note their REPLiCA b-15 appears by every photo i've seen of it to be 2" longer than the current b-15 model. so personally i suspect they are screwing over customers to save $$$.

i would have gotten the apparently longer replica alpha b-15, and am still thinking of getting it, even tho all i wanted was a throwaround jacket with nice mil specs and style. however, since it is in replica green only, and i grew up in the 60s as a junior high and high school student wearing real surplus vietnam mil items, the replica green is somewhat a been there done that thing for me. i've gone Johnny Cash and like black. or at least dark.

this rothco N-2B is warmer than my alpha current b-15, aside from being several inches longer. but i'll admit, as the members of the fedlounge know all too well, there is a cache to owning something that is legit, either from the era, or a replica built to actual standards. so that joy is gone from this jacket. even though it was never part of the mix when i ordered.

so this does the job very nicely, looks superb, will probably not last the lifetime an alpha would, but at least covers my belly button unless i decided to purchase the alpha replica camo greenb-15. damn, i hate being an addict and having to think about buying that thing!!!!!!!!!!!

the alpha b-15 replica, several inches longer it appears than the alpha current b-15, and warmer/heavier/costlier too

 

[karhu21]

I bought an MA1 made by Alpha about 12 years ago. Its really beat up but still going strong and quite warm in the cold weather.
Its a US made version. They say that the ones nowadays are manufactured in China and that the quality just isn t the same.
There are cheaper versions of both the MA1, N2B and NB3 available but next time I would go for a military Nomex version and pay the
extra.

 

[Peacoat]

Having worn nylon during my pilot days, I have never had any fascination with nylon flight jackets. I have a L2-B that I wore most of the time in the winter--my coldest weather tour was in Savannah, GA., so I don't have any experience with cold weather and nylon. I do have a MA-1 I evidently picked up along the way for those colder mornings--maybe in the 20s--on the flight line at Hunter in Savannah. But that is the sum of my knowledge about cold weather nylon outerwear. I do know that both of my nylon flight jackets are short in the torso. Either from the effects of washing or, as Atticus says, from the effects of sweat in the cockpit. Or, perhaps from having been built that way. But whatever the cause, they are short--both of them. My MA-1 is a 1968 Alpha and my L2-B is a 1967 Satellite.

With Johnny(squared) talking about nylon for cold weather wear, it got me a bit interested. The b-15 pictured above looks like one of my G-1s, but in nylon. I would like either a B-15 or other warm--it has to be really warm--nylon jacket/coat without the hood. It would need to be an original issue item, or very close to it. The B-15 might fit the bill. What are some other options? I don't care much for hoods as they seem to be in the way when not being worn, and in my part of the country there just isn't that much use for them. Warmth, yes, but not hoods.

I know Atticus is familiar with them all, and maybe a few other members who are also members on VLJ.

 

[tonypaj]

I bought an MA1 made by Alpha about 12 years ago. Its really beat up but still going strong and quite warm in the cold weather.
Its a US made version. They say that the ones nowadays are manufactured in China and that the quality just isn t the same.
There are cheaper versions of both the MA1, N2B and NB3 available but next time I would go for a military Nomex version and pay the
extra.

Bear dude, here is how I think. Where you are, NB3 is the deal, it protects the back, it covers the bead, it is just what I would have wanted in the military, and after that, when I lived there. If you can get one from the 50s, even better. No Chinese stuff, the originals are the way to go as long as you are not looking for a modern parka.

 

[karhu21]

Bear Dude here.

Quite right, the NB3 would be the deal for this climate but I am looking into the US Artic parka
(heavy fabric with a thick lining)

 

[Atticus Finch]

The B-15 might fit the bill. What are some other options? I don't care much for hoods ....

With respect to American cloth flight jackets without hoods, there are really only a few options. The first ones you already know about, the MA-1 and the L-2B. But then there's the B-10. Not nylon, but very warm with its alpaca lining and mouton collar. You'll probably have to buy a repro, though. Originals are not plentiful because the jacket was only made for a few years well over half a century ago. Eastman and Buzz make nice ones. I thought that either WPG or ATF once made an affordable one...but now I can't find a B-10 on either site.

Then there's the five versions of the B-15 and the modifications of several of those versions. Of course, the B-15 was in its last series when the Air Force decided that fur collars were obstructive in the cockpit and not really necessary. Many of the existing B-15s...especially the B-15Cs and B-15Ds...were collected and refitted with knit collars. The sage B-15D Mod was later renamed the MA-1. BTW, I have always thought the B-15 modification program is why so many people insist that the MA-1 was also issued in blue. I'm sure they've seen an issued blue jacket that looks almost exactly like an MA-1...but its really a B-15C Mod.

B-15s are not terribly hard to find. Everybody and his cat makes a repro B-15. But the problem with most of them is they look like mall rent-a-cop jackets...especially the dark blue B-15C. The old Alpha replicas from the ninties were a particularly good value...if you can find one. And Alpha still makes repro B-15s, but I know nothing about their quality. Then there's the high end models made by (you guessed it) Buzz and Eastman. Also, many original B-15s were made, so it isn't too difficult to snag the real deal...especially if you're a size 42 or smaller.

Then there's the CWUs...which are nice jackets and very warm, but not so vintage.

AF

 

[tonypaj]

Bear Dude here.

Quite right, the NB3 would be the deal for this climate but I am looking into the US Artic parka
(heavy fabric with a thick lining)

That's what N3B really is, my understaning is that it was used for arctic/anarctic missions. I may be wrong there, others will correct me, if necessary. There was a nice thread about this stuff, but Dave went and destroyed the pics...

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/show...lothing-amp-Equipment&highlight=Dudleydoright

Anyway, good luck with the search.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

and yet

in response to mr. finch and my good forum friend/nemesis legume coat, the alpha b-15 repro might be the deal

http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Replica-B-15-Flight-Jacket.asp

as my coated legume pal would like, this jacket looks to my connoisseuring eye to be identical enough to the originals to pass (and, like a-2, g-1's, etc, we all know there wasn't some carved in stone from God unified version). also, it appears to be a few inches longer than the alpha current b-15 which i own and love eXcept for legume jacket's correct and obvious point about them being made too short. further, the b-15 alpha replica is warmer than their normal b-15, tho you have to be careful and i might get it off the alpha website as a lot of dealers call the regular b-15 by alpha a repro, even tho it is not alpha's repro model. some even use the wrong pictures...you can tell by the price. the actual alpha repro is over $200, the normal ones just over $100.

with respect to mr. finch, i think this might fill his bill (pun), tho remove bills from his wallet. however, not as much as paying the $350 or more for the eastman and rickman repros. as amazing as they are, they really look better than the real deals (which i've extensively gone over on ebay...sadly i'm a size XXL : [ however, a lot of the actual issue b-15's/ma's were done quite economically on the military contract and the eastman/buzz look way overdone, like a period movie where everyone is dressed in new clothes and much better than back in the actual period. the alpha repro looks like a top of the line actual issue model from the day.

sadly i've read online too that some of alpha's stuff is china made. my rothco n-2b is as good as one would like, china made, and $50 on amazon. however, there is no pride in getting a chinese made repro of an american military jacket that was actually used to fight the chinese in the korean conflict. it's perverse to be honest. yet i did it. and there's the always gnawing claim by some of my anti-nike friends that anything from china is either exploited or slave labor. i won't enter that fray.

i'm sure the alpha b-15 repro is u.s. made, tho the website has a number you can call for all questions. as said, i'm about to pull the trigger on one of them. i'd prefer the historical navy blue but alpha is apparently only making the sage green.

to verbosely and lastly address pjacket's point i once shared, the non-fascination with nylon jackets. as said earlier (i repeat everything...as a reporter i learned it's a good way to fill a news hole on a slow day), i had bought my b-15 about 10 years ago, moved on to leather having never worn it. i recently tossed it in the scummy back of my scummy old car (now deceased) to wear on movie sets as an extra on cold days. not only was it amazing, and did it get nods and looks from the crew guys, but the more worn it got the better it looked, whilst being sturdy enough to look weathered, but not actually get torn or ripped up (in effect, superior to leather in some ways...i'd certainly not take a leather jacket to a movie set).

after i purchased perhaps the last high end leather jacket ever (i hope), my $500+ vented vanson sportrider, i now find myself lured to at least one more jacket, a good nylon b-15 or fur collared ma. that they can be a throw-in-the-car jacket, yet sturdy enough to resist pointy elements that would gut a $900 horsehide eastman or aero, and are much warmer than animal skins (yay technology)...they do have their own romance to them, if not as gothic and dark as leather.

 

[Bonneville]

Actually JJ I think the Alpha $250 B15 you refer to is "Replica Green" as opposed to their "Sage"...not sure but I believe it's a little bluer than sage.
I like the Alphas too, recently purchased one of their navy MA1's. As for military style parkas I like them as long as they have real fur on the collar, a bendable wire in the hood snorkel and inner sleeve cuffs. I'm still trying to track down a real Can. Armed Forces winter parka (older version)...slept in one in the snow for 3 weeks in boot camp many moons ago. I doubt there is another parka in the world as good. Their old version Navy deck jackets are also incredible.

 

[johnnyjohnny]

saw a couple of candian air force nylon jackets recently on ebay with mouton collars and a slant, or off to one side, zipper. loved them but were a size too small for me. not the parkas, but very cool (not temp wise, but culture wise)...might still be up there under canadian flight jacket or something like that.

i'm a johnny cash type now so i'll leave the green behind...so decided against the alpha b-15 replica, but mil-tec has a cpu with leather collar that is a couple of inches longer than the length alpha makes their b-15s/cpu's/etc...so i'm going to get that: http://www.military1st.co.uk/10405003-cwu-45p-jacket-with-fur-collar-navy.html

my rothco N-2B has kept me warm and is generally very nice except for the zipper, which becomes very difficult up around the neck...not anywhere near the alpha smooth zippers...definitely an issue

 

[Atticus Finch]

Just picked up this original Reed N-3A last night. It was mislisted on ebay as an N-3B. Of course, no one who knows even the slightest bit about nylon flight jackets could have been misled by the incorrect listing...given the jacket's deep blue color and black ruff. One good thing about vintage nylon...it isn't hard to ID.

I'm not sure why I bought it. The jacket looks to be in only marginal condition. And, as I've said before, I seldom get to wear the N jackets I already own...especially this warm winter. But I didn't have an N-3A in my collection...and like all '50s nylon jackets, they're getting harder to find. Maybe I'll keep it in Milwaukee and let it be my winter jacket for when I'm up there.

AF

 

[Jeff M]

So..stupid question here.
Is the US military still using the NB2 design...if not, what has taken it's place?
Who is supplying them?

 

[Atticus Finch]

I'm not sure. The N-2B and the N-3B were being issued as late as the '80s, but my guess is that they have been discontinued. As you may know, almost everything in the USAF flight equipment inventory is now nomex...and the N jackets are nylon.

AF

 

[Peacoat]

I'm not sure. The N-2B and the N-3B were being issued as late as the '80s, but my guess is that they have been discontinued. As you may know, almost everything in the USAF flight equipment inventory is now nomex...and the N jackets are nylon.

AF

The Army started doing the nomex thing for its pilots in the late 60s, and I hated it; still do.