Ribbons...

[thecardigankid]

So I'm curious I know with ribbons it's best to go with the very basic and avoid valor medals unless you actually earned them. But what are your thoughts on someone who is portraying a veteran of the dark days of the 8th Air Force in 1943 when they were issuing Air Medals and Distinguished Flying Cross for completing your 25 missions? Like if I were doing an air corps impression say a 44 or 45 time frame and my persona had served with and completed 25 missions in 43 with the 8th would it be unethical for me to be wearing a DFC I didnt actually earn in real life but who I am portraying would have during the war?

 

[Sgt Brown]

Just remember that someone who had completed his 25 missions in 1943 would by 1944-45 probably be a member of the 3rd AF serving as an instructor. The AAF wanted their expertise to teach the new guys coming up and they were in no hurry to go back into combat.

That was exactly the situation of a friend of mine who's backside is shown in "Silver Wings, Pinks and Greens" and his front side in the documentary "Pistol Packing Momma". Shirl was a gunner on PPM who then came home after his 25 and served as a gunnery instructor at a training base in Florida. His war stories about combat were interesting but his stories about what they did at the training base were hilarious!

Just my own philosophy, but I would never wear any ribbon, even as simple as the Good Conduct Medal, that I did not actually earn in real life. And as for campaign medals, I only would wear those for campaigns before I was born.

Tom

P.S. Even though it was recently declared unconstitutional, there is a reason for the Stolen Valor Act. You are better off not wearing any ribbons for valor.

Tom

 

[cco23i]

As I said I would only wear the theater ribbons, American campaign, ETO or PTO. Valor ribbons are a big No No and those would be DFC, Air medals and such. UNLESS they were ACTUALLY EARNED BY YOU.

Scott

 

[MPicciotto]

I'm not a veteran so forgive me if I'm speaking out of line. But I concur with the first two replies here with one exception. If you were participating in a documentary and your character was awarded those medals. But for day to day reenacting I'd say no.

Matt

 

[cco23i]

Yes Matt you are correct for like a film or something of that nature. The thing that REALLY get to vets are the people who show up with purple hearts and DSC's, Flying crosses and medals such as that. THEn people tend to get a little pissed. Many civilians have no idea how much was sacrificed for those medals.

Scott

 

[thecardigankid]

But the thing is the air medal and/or DFC seem to have been a common thing issued to the bomber crews in 43 and early 44 almost all of the accounts I have read have guys getting one or the other and sometimes both, sometimes multiples of the medals just for doing their everyday jobs. And when I read something like that for those situations it's almost coming off as the same as an infantryman would with a combat infantrymans badge.

They got them at completion of 25 missions an infantryman got his combat infantry badge just for seeing combat (and we see scores of those on reenactors). The thing I'm saying is that if one were representing someone who had been on a combat crew in 43 and had completed 25 missions it would be inaccurate to not have one of those awards. I can see where it would be a problem if he had the award and said he had gotten it for doing something extremely extraordinary, but when he's wearing it for having completed 25 missions in 43 and it was a common occurrence for the combat crews to receive them, then I don't see how it is a problem because he is representing a veteran of the dark days accurately.

Do you see where I am coming from?

 

[cco23i]

I understand BUT you have to remember the "common" medal AWARDED was done after NUMEROUS hours of getting shot at, dealing with flak and your buddies dying around you. Just because it was a "common" AWARDED medal doesn't make the meaning any less. Many vets I have spoken with hold many their medals dear to them due to memories of friends being killed around them. Hell, the Air Force now has certain individuals awarded the bronz start JUST FOR BEING IN A CERTAIN AREA OF AFGANISTAN!

Scott

 

[Peacoat]

There are Bronze Stars, and there are Bronze Stars with a V. The latter is an award for heroism, hence the the V for Valor. The former is given for extraordinary achievement, or words to that effect.

There are Air Medals and Air Medals with a V. Air Medals are given for achievement while flying. The V device is given for heroism while flying, hence the V.

In WWII there were a bunch of DFCs award for Extraordinary Achievement While Participating in Aerial Flight, or words to that effect. An example of this award would be a pilot of a B-17 making it back to England after both he and the aircraft had been shot full of holes and losing two (or three?) engines There was also the DFC with a V. This was an award given for heroism--V for Valor. They were relatively rare. Today I think most, or perhaps all, of the DFCs are given for heroism while participating in aerial flight. Not sure the "achievement" DFC is much given anymore.

There is a DFC Society based in California. They have a website and some of the stories of pilots and crew flying the aircraft back from a bombing mission with tremendous damage, may still be available. While many of these stories don't involve valor under fire, they do show extraordinary achievement.

Would I take offense if I saw a poser wearing any of the above medals? You betcha!

 

[Peacoat]

. . .sometimes multiples of the medals just for doing their everyday jobs. And when I read something like that for those situations it's almost coming off as the same as an infantryman would with a combat infantrymans badge.

Whoa, I just noticed the above quote in your post. Probably best that you not make that comment around someone who was awarded the CIB. I don't know about recently, but in VN troopers had to earn it. I imagine (hope) it is the same way today.

When I see an infantryman with the CIB, I have the utmost respect for him. I know what he had to go through to earn it, and it wasn't just a simple walk in the park. I'm sure, just like any medal, there were some who didn't earn it, but got the award anyway. But the vast majority earned it the hard way.

 

[thecardigankid]

Whoa, I just noticed the above quote in your post. Probably best that you not make that comment around someone who was awarded the CIB. I don't know about recently, but in VN troopers had to earn it. I imagine (hope) it is the same way today.

When I see an infantryman with the CIB, I have the utmost respect for him. I know what he had to go through to earn it, and it wasn't just a simple walk in the park. I'm sure, just like any medal, there were some who didn't earn it, but got the award anyway. But the vast majority earned it the hard way.

Yea that would be a bad quote if you stopped reading the post right at that sentence, but the rest goes on to explain it. I didnt take anything away from the CIB by saying that, you are reading that wrong if you are taking offense to it, it was comparing that of the average work of a combat crew to that of an infantryman in regards of seeing combat. Trust me I know the sacrifice of a vietnam vet, my father served 3 tours in Vietnam, and I am not taking anything away from these men.

Now like you had stated earlier in a post: "There are Air Medals and Air Medals with a V. Air Medals are given for achievement while flying. The V device is given for heroism while flying, hence the V. "


They considered it an achievment to have finished 25 missions, but the point I am trying to make is if you are trying to represent a certain group of people of people and you want to represent them ACCURATELY would you not want to have the correct ribbons on your uniform that the people you are representing would have had? I'm just saying that if you are going to represent them, represent them correctly.

You guys are also forgetting, that the Air Medal was a commonly issued item to combat crews in most theaters during the war. The air medal was issued for completion of the first 5 missions of a crew. After that for each 5 missions after that they complete they would receive an oak leaf cluster. So someone who was at 15 missions with 10 more to go would have an Air Medal with 2 Oak Leafs, someone with 25 missions would have an Air Medal with 4 Oak Leafs.
"During my tour, people in the UK after completing 25 missions got an air medal with 3 olc plus the DFC. In the 15th AF we did 50 missions and got an air medal with 9 olc.

The air medal is awarded for "meritorious flight"
the DFC is awarded for "extraordinary flight" - Jules Horowitz B-17 Pilot with the 99th Bomb Group



Now the DFC wasnt issued for completion of a tour for the entire war, but it appears the Air Medal was a common issue to combat crews through out the entire war in most theaters. The order to stop issuing the DFC for completion of a tour was issued in May or June of 1944 to the 8th AF, but some were still being issued them up until September of 44.

So can you see where I am coming from, to be representing a combat crew member in ANY combat theater, if you are representing someone with more than 5 missions under their belt then you would have an Air Medal, the Air Medal represented in this light I honestly feel would not be taking away from it at all, but would not only be representing the combat crews accurately, but you would also be representing the history of the Air Medal.

 

[Peacoat]

Jules Horowitz, B17 pilot, got half of it right. The DFC is awarded for extraordinary flight. It is also awarded for valor. The extraordinary flight award was common in WWII, not so much since the war, if at all. During my days as a pilot, I never saw a DFC awarded for extraordinary flight. In the days since then, I haven't heard of it being so awarded. Sorry I got a bit afield, but I wanted to set the record straight on the DFC.

 

[thecardigankid]

I understand BUT you have to remember the "common" medal AWARDED was done after NUMEROUS hours of getting shot at, dealing with flak and your buddies dying around you. Just because it was a "common" AWARDED medal doesn't make the meaning any less. Many vets I have spoken with hold many their medals dear to them due to memories of friends being killed around them. Hell, the Air Force now has certain individuals awarded the bronz start JUST FOR BEING IN A CERTAIN AREA OF AFGANISTAN!

Scott

I understand that, but when we are out there striving for accuracy, would you not want to accurately portray the men to your best ability? With what you just said, then the following should not be worn by anyone in reenacting unless they earned them Combat Infantrymans Badge, Paratrooper Wings, any Army Air Force Wings, Pacific Theater of Operations ribbon, European Theater of Operations, Good Conduct Medal, Rifle Qualification Badges, etc. etc.

Each listed above and countless more had to be earned, they werent just handed out, and any veteran can take offense to any of those above when someone wears it that hasnt earned it.

But you know what, I bet at the next hangar dance you go to, there will be countless "soldiers" wearing good conduct ribbons, theater of operations ribbons, PUCs, etc. etc. and if you go up and ask them why they are wearing it the most common answer is "Because the person I am portraying would have had these ribbons by this time frame"

Now if you were portraying a combat crewman, would it be any less wrong for you to be wearing wings you never earned and missing a ribbon you WOULD have had if you were a combat crewman back stateside, or is it better to represent it accurately have the correct ribbon rack for the correct time frame you are representing.

If you are representing the combat crewmen and you have your class A uniform on then you better have the correct ribbons on your ribbon rack that would have been there for who you are representing. Will someone get offended, they might, but who is to say they arent going to get mad about you wearing their uniform, or their wings or representing their unit, its not just certain medals that can piss someone off its anything we wear in this hobby could piss a veteran off. But most veterans I have met, connect on the small details that bring an impression around full swing. Those that show up medal happy with A LOT of medals they didnt earn will rub veterans wrong, but when it was a common issued medal, to all combat crewmen during the war, if you are representing a combat crewman to have it on your uniform is not wrong its accurate, and if you respect it as such, and can explain why you have it or why you would have it, you arent being showy or trying to look like a hero, you are accurately representing who you want to represent and you are promoting the history of the combat crewmen of the second world war.

 

[thecardigankid]

Jules Horowitz, B17 pilot, got half of it right. The DFC is awarded for extraordinary flight. It is also awarded for valor. The extraordinary flight award was common in WWII, not so much since the war, if at all. During my days as a pilot, I never saw a DFC awarded for extraordinary flight. In the days since then, I haven't heard of it being so awarded. Sorry I got a bit afield, but I wanted to set the record straight on the DFC.

I agree with you fully, I wasnt gonna change the guys quote haha. But the DFC is like a lot of medals since WW2, there are quite a few medals that havent been issued in the great numbers it was then. My main concern for most of this topic is the Air Medal, I threw the DFC in because it was awarded to A LOT of bomber crews in 43 and 44. But my main issue is with the Air Medal.

 

[Peacoat]

If you are a reenactor, then you aren't a poser. Your uniform will be WWII, which is probably before you were born. I would think any medals and ribbons within reason would be acceptable, and most veterans wouldn't take offense because you were't pretending to be something you weren't. Those are the ones who make us a little bit crazy.

 

[Sgt Brown]

The fact remains that under the Stolen Valor Act it is illegal to wear any valor medal you did not earn. In fact, it is illegal to buy or sell one. Illegal - period.

Tom

 

[thecardigankid]

The fact remains that under the Stolen Valor Act it is illegal to wear any valor medal you did not earn. In fact, it is illegal to buy or sell one. Illegal - period.

Tom

unless it has a v for valor device then it's not a valor award without the v for valor device it's an achievement medal.

 

[Sgt Brown]

The law covers all awards including Good Conduct Medals, Purple Hearts, etc. All awards. Didn't earn them, can't wear them.

Tom

 

[thecardigankid]

The law covers all awards including Good Conduct Medals, Purple Hearts, etc. All awards. Didn't earn them, can't wear them.

Tom

good luck enforcing that at an event, besides last time I read the stolen valor act was deemed unconstitutional (as sad as that is)

 

[Widebrim]

If you are a reenactor, then you aren't a poser. Your uniform will be WWII, which is probably before you were born. I would think any medals and ribbons within reason would be acceptable, and most veterans wouldn't take offense because you were't pretending to be something you weren't. Those are the ones who make us a little bit crazy.

I think this is acceptable to many people, including veterans. When I see a WWII reenactor, I routinely go up to him and ask if I can take a closer look at his uniform. If he's wearing ribbons, I take no offense because he is obviously reenacting, and is striving to be as accurate as possible. What does bother me (and maybe it shouldn't) is when I see someone who I'm pretty sure was never in the service wearing a fatigue shirt/jacket, or a class A jacket. I can somewhat understand if a guy wears fatigue trousers as workpants, but wearing the top part of the uniform somehow grates on me...

 

[416rigby]

The only way

Partisipating in an organised re enactment or display, fine---Hanger dance dosen't qualify, otherwise there is only one way for it to be correct.