Ribbon source

[Vintage Betty]

Betty, Art, ...

Is it possible that hats (and historic clothing in general) have enjoyed a slight revival thanks to online communities like this one, but ribbon suppliers have not met the need, so the vintage ribbon folk put a bone-crushing grip on the market?

With a tip of the hat to Major Moore above, he is looking to source new ribbon and Spatterdash, you are talking about vintage ribbon.

The demand cannot be attributed to hatters alone. I think it's the whole altered art craft movement = take something old and re-create it into something new.

Edit: I sent a modern manufacturing resource to Major Moore (privately) that only requires 5000 yard minimum purchase. Not sure if it's what's he's looking for, but perhaps he can gather other orders if he is interested in trying out the manufacturing plant.

 

[bolthead]

Wasn't there a member that posted here, not too long ago that he struck the grosgrain gold mine? It was like the Johnnyphi of ribbon, so to speak?

Whatever happened to that situation? [huh]

 

[Woodfluter]

And you know, the other irritating thing about this is that I can go into a local fabric store and buy polyester ribbon in interesting colors and widths, by the yard, with a finished edge. So why not the good stuff??

I ordered some rayon/cotton milliner's ribbon online a while back, to change out a few on newer hats, not guessing from the pictures that these weren't finished edges. Bummer.

Adding up the stuff I've seen in the past year - best quality all-beaver hats that don't quite match vintage of unknown composition, ribbon of vintage quality scarce, sweatbands mostly not as good as some that are 60 or 70 years old and have been worn a lot, no Cavanagh edges anymore - makes me suspect that the ordinary products of a golden age of hat manufacturing are no longer quite within reach whatever you have to spend. Depressing in a way.

In exchange we get i-Pods that are essentially disposable after the Li-ion battery goes bad.

- Bill

 

[Art Fawcett]

Betty, Art, ...

Is it possible that hats (and historic clothing in general) have enjoyed a slight revival thanks to online communities like this one, but ribbon suppliers have not met the need, so the vintage ribbon folk put a bone-crushing grip on the market?

It's possible, but doubtful Dash. There have always been & will always be those that see things in a different light (value) and I think that's what's happening here. I've watched people buy up goods, then try to resell at a huge profit over and over. Sometimes it works, most times they are gone soon.

Wasn't there a member that posted here, not too long ago that he struck the grosgrain gold mine? It was like the Johnnyphi of ribbon, so to speak?

Whatever happened to that situation?

I led a group of hatters that bought it all from Warbaby , Bolthead. I don't believe he wanted to be in the ribbon biz but wanted to help the trade so it worked out good for all.

makes me suspect that the ordinary products of a golden age of hat manufacturing are no longer quite within reach whatever you have to spend. Depressing in a way.

Bill, I somewhat agree with what you are stating in your post but I don't think I'd put the word "ordinary" in the same sentence as Cav edges. The main obstacle , as I see it, is first lack of sales base which leads to lack of competion because too many companies go under from lack of sales. That said, the only way to change it is to demand from your local store something better than polyester. Only if enough people demand it, will it change.

That said, there are those of us that DO offer that quality and more joining the ranks every day so I wouldn't get TOO down about it. Things tend to change.

 

[tonyb]

And you know, the other irritating thing about this is that I can go into a local fabric store and buy polyester ribbon in interesting colors and widths, by the yard, with a finished edge. So why not the good stuff??

I ordered some rayon/cotton milliner's ribbon online a while back, to change out a few on newer hats, not guessing from the pictures that these weren't finished edges. Bummer.


- Bill

Just to add to the overall bummertude ...

Even the modern "good stuff," the cotton/rayon blend, finished edge hat band ribbon, doesn't quite compare to the vintage stuff. Some of the new ribbon is okay, but just okay. Its shortcomings wouldn't be apparent to the casual observer, but a hat person could spot the difference, especially in a side-by-side comparison. The vintage ribbon has a nicer look (it has a softer, richer, deeper sort of sheen) and a much nicer feel. It's soft and smooth, whereas the new stuff is generally stiffer.

In situations where the new ribbon is the best available (if it's all a hatter can get in a particular color and width), well, then that's what gets used and that will just have to be good enough. And, you know, it ain't bad. There's many a hat that just about all of us would gladly wear that's trimmed out in modern ribbon.

What's really a bummer is when you deal with someone you'd have every reason to believe knows his or her stuff and order what you thought was finished edge ribbon, because you made it clear as could be that the finished edge ribbon was what you wanted, that you clearly stated you weren't interested in the scalloped edge stuff, and when it arrives, well, you get the scalloped edge stuff. (Yes, this has happened to me.)

 

[Woodfluter]

Thanks for the comments Art and TonyB.

Art, I understood of course that the Cav edge was never "ordinary", but I meant non-custom made hats. If you had the dough, you could get a Mode/Custom/ Cav edge hat in a store. And I understand completely why even custom hatters like you would find it very difficult now, or maybe not feasible.

That and some of the other things I described were what I meant about a golden age. I don't know enough to say when that started but maybe you could venture an opinion - early 20th century, or earlier? Then mostly kaput by the 70's? Yep, I understand about the demand thing.

As I understand it, some hat manufacturers made ribbons on the premises rather than purchasing them - maybe to get special colors or to have more control over quality?

In any case, I'm baffled as to why it should be so difficult to get edged milliner's ribbon, which you'd think should look more classy, while poly ribbon (properly belting I guess) has the nice edge. Even the inferior Chinese-made poly ribbon I bought once on clearance had a good edge.

- Bill

 

[tonyb]

In any case, I'm baffled as to why it should be so difficult to get edged milliner's ribbon, which you'd think should look more classy, while poly ribbon (properly belting I guess) has the nice edge. Even the inferior Chinese-made poly ribbon I bought once on clearance had a good edge.

- Bill

Yeah, go figure. Even my local fabric/crafts store has lots and lots of stuff that looks (at first glance, anyway) like proper hat band ribbon, but it's 100 percent polyester. I suppose the retailers aren't pushing the manufacturers for anything better, because the retailers perceive very little demand for it.

 

[Fletch]

Supply does not turn on demand

...it turns more like an ocean liner, because all this stuff - ribbon, sweatnbanding, everything that goes into a quality lid - is an industrial product. Each part takes specialized skills and equipment to make, and can only be profitably made on a mass market basis, to cater to common fashions.

Even if classic men's hats became the rage overnight, the suppliers and jobbers would need considerable time to retool for the market, and indeed some would surely pass up the opportunity.

 

[Art Fawcett]

...it turns more like an ocean liner, because all this stuff - ribbon, sweatnbanding, everything that goes into a quality lid - is an industrial product. Each part takes specialized skills and equipment to make, and can only be profitably made on a mass market basis, to cater to common fashions.

Even if classic men's hats became the rage overnight, the suppliers and jobbers would need considerable time to retool for the market, and indeed some would surely pass up the opportunity.

Spot on Fletch!!! That's basically what I meant and hope I didn't imply immediacy but surely, if the demand grows to a point where the market dictates change and there is a buck to be made, it will happen. Do I personally believe that will be the case? nope, but one can hope, right?

Bill, I don't have any information to contradict your statement about in house ribbon making and actually I would tend to believe it because of the huge size of the industry 100 yrs ago. It wouldn't surprise me at all if info came to light that Lee, or Stetson, or the other "biggies" made their own ribbon to control the process much like Ford did back then. Also, I was just poking you a bit as I understood the tone of your post. Very few things are as well made or with as many choices as in the Golden era but, that isn't meant to degrade the "best of the best" today. It just isn't as easy for the consumer or craftsman.

 

[Fletch]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Art; glad to know my view of the situation isn't from too far out in left field. My conviction is that as a big country, we do best marketing to big markets, but our individualism - historically rugged, but now, more and more often, refined - has never reconciled with that fact.

PS, it is of course sweatbanding, not sweatnbanding.

 

[JimC]

Greetings to all from a Lounge newbie. I'm sure this question has been asked dozens of times but.........one never knows, do one? I'll ask it again.........!

I need to make a 1.5 (or 2" second choice) ribbon for a dark brown fedora. I've torn the 'Net apart and can't find a source for small "one hat" lengths of smooth edge cotton/rayon grosgrain ribbon at a reasonable price. Does anyone know of a source?

 

[MJH]

Hi JimC. I'm a Lounge newbie too so certainly no expert, but Hornets Hats sent me a piece of ribbon for my Adventurer. I'm not sure if it's cotton/rayon but it was 1-1/2" dark brown ribbon. It looks like the ribbon shown on the Adventurer http://www.hornetshats.com/f_hatview.php?link=Fur%20Felts. I think it cost me £4.50 (I'm in the UK). I know they send internationally as I've just bought my nephew one of their new Stetson caps and had it sent direct to USA. Hope that helps!

 

[Jauntyone]

I ordered ribbon from these folks a while back. It reached me quickly and it is real hat ribbon--it can be swirled and stretched.
http://www.advintagefedora.de/shop/Hat-Trimmings?XTCsid=2e41hi987t9o461j3hiuf4ven1

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I've had some luck with Etsy.com on occassion.

 

[OT1899]

I've purchased replacement ribbons from Optimo in Chicago. I think I paid about $30.00 each including shipping. Not cheap, but less expensive than shipping the hat to Chicago and back ......

 

[Undertow]

A source of hat ribbon? Have you tried your local hobby stores? Or your local fabric stores? Typically, they carry grosgrain ribbon in many sizes and you can buy an entire roll, or cut to length.

On the other hand, you have to make sure the ribbon is cotton/rayon - I can't find anything but polyester in my locale.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

A source of hat ribbon? Have you tried your local hobby stores? Or your local fabric stores? Typically, they carry grosgrain ribbon in many sizes and you can buy an entire roll, or cut to length.

On the other hand, you have to make sure the ribbon is cotton/rayon - I can't find anything but polyester in my locale.

Therein dwells the problem - almost all fabric and hobby stores carry ribbon that will not work for our purposes... even on line. I've lost a lot of sleep looking.

 

[zetwal]

What about the ribbons sold here?

http://www.hatsupply.com

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I inquired there, and was told that their grosgrain has a saw-tooth edge.

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

I've purchased replacement ribbons from Optimo in Chicago. I think I paid about $30.00 each including shipping. Not cheap, but less expensive than shipping the hat to Chicago and back ......

Now, I assume that is with the ribbon already made into a bow and all you have to do is stitch it on? Or is it just raw ribbon?