Retro-extremists? What are we called?

[Carlisle Blues]

You never heard one.

Not that I recall........if you have an example then I naturally I will rethink my statement.[huh] [huh]

 

[LizzieMaine]

Carlisle --

You don't, by your own statements many times around the lounge, "live vintage." By taking off your hat, you can disappear into the crowd. People aren't doing snarky articles in British tabloids or making two-bit reality shows about your way of life. That being so, and with all due respect, *none of what we've been talking about since the first page of this thread applies to you.*

I can't make it more clear than that.

 

[Tango Yankee]

Better to have a self described term than to let some moron use phrases like Inspector Gadget, Indy, Gangster, and a host of others you can find in the Dumbest Comment thread.
You can opt out for sure. If you don't want to be categorized then you can deal with cowboy, pimp, etc., etc. that you will get anyway.

Even if you are "categorized" you'll still get the same ignorant comments! This will only help those who are well informed. The ignorant will stay ignorant and continue tossing out the same trite comparisons. After all, they've already categorized us as Indy, Dick Tracy, and the like. (By "us" I mean "anyone who wears a hat." I doubt Lizzie gets called cowboy or pimp!)

 

[jamespowers]

Even if you are "categorized" you'll still get the same ignorant comments! This will only help those who are well informed. The ignorant will stay ignorant and continue tossing out the same trite comparisons. After all, they've already categorized us as Indy, Dick Tracy, and the like.

The well-informed will help the ignorant if there is some name to be used rather than Dick Tracy and Columbo.
This is also dependent on how much of a vintage life you live.[huh]

 

[jamespowers]

Carlisle --

You don't, by your own statements many times around the lounge, "live vintage." By taking off your hat, you can disappear into the crowd. People aren't doing snarky articles in British tabloids or making two-bit reality shows about your way of life. That being so, and with all due respect, *none of what we've been talking about since the first page of this thread applies to you.*

I can't make it more clear than that.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap Exactly! You need to actually have skin in the vintage wool so to speak.

 

[Undertow]

Chronofidelis, perhaps? Seems a little much, but I think True to Time, or something like that is appropriate.

Are we even still looking for a name here? Or did I miss the post?

 

[SGT Rocket]

Jack,

...I think that my perfect world would have a combination of old and new in both physical items and cultural mindset, preferably keeping the good from both and disposing of the bad. Never going to happen, I know. So I chose the things I can afford (hats, fountain pens, shaving cremes, brushes and double-edge razors) and try to mix in some of the civility of the past. I think good manners are timeless--or at least, ought to be.

I decry most of what passes for progress in our popular culture--the language that's now acceptable in songs, on TV, and in movies as well as in daily life. The pressure to be "always on" work-wise. The loss of childhood innocence. But I've never thought of myself as any different from anyone else who looked around and said "When I was your age..."

I do feel culturally displaced most of the time...
Cheers,
Tom

I could not agree more. I really enjoy the fashion, and "feel" if you will of the era from about 1930 to about 1948.

I don't really know how to put into words what "feel" actually means to me in this respect. I would love to combine the best of the old with the best of the new. I "feel" like most of today society has a tendency (at least in the suburbs of major cities here in the U.S.) to tear something down (buildings or culture) and automatically put us something new simply because *they* can... *They* being whoever is doing the tear down.

fftopic: Here is an example to me of a cultural tear down:
I remember at college, holding open a door for a girl. I had arrived there just seconds before she, so I opened the door and stood out of the way to let her enter (I had been taught this by my parents, and enlisted men such as myself do this for officers in the military. I had gone to college right after my enlisted ended in 1989). I can't begin to tell you the tongue lashing I got from this woman.

This is sort of a cultural tear down if you will. I did not mean to offend the woman. I held the door open to her as a sign of respect from the culture I was raised. I did not mean to insinuate, as she thought I had, that because she was a woman she could not open a door for herself. I was totally shocked by this tongue lashing.

 

[jamespowers]

fftopic: Here is an example to me of a cultural tear down:
I remember at college, holding open a door for a girl. I had arrived there just seconds before she, so I opened the door and stood out of the way to let her enter (I had been taught this by my parents, and enlisted men such as myself do this for officers in the military. I had gone to college right after my enlisted ended in 1989). I can't begin to tell you the tongue lashing I got from this woman.

This is sort of a cultural tear down if you will. I did not mean to offend the woman. I held the door open to her as a sign of respect from the culture I was raised. I did not mean to insinuate, as she thought I had, that because she was a woman she could not open a door for herself. I was totally shocked by this tongue lashing.

So I am not the only one that this has happened to. :eusa_doh:
What are you supposed to do when you get confronted with this? Tell her to go outside again so you can slam the door in her face?

 

[Foofoogal]

"hey, you know what, we *aren't* a bunch of delusional cake-bakers tripping merrily about our kitchens in stilleto heels because hubby wants us to" is, to my mind, a very useful and worthwhile thing.

and I feel for those who want to be this or try to recreate what they believe it was.

I would most definitely live a total vintage lifestyle if I was able to. (of course medical not included)
I truly believe this thread is so pertinent to now..
I also believe if many more of the mainstream of people would know about the FL Lizzie would have tons of company.

As an antiques dealer I have learned people and what sells is not the object but memories.
With the lightening speed of today there is going to be a huge backlash I think. I truly don't believe people are designed to take in so much.
That is why you hear of people chunking whole lifestyles and moving to a ranch somewhere.
I deal with people who have not gone more then 50 miles anywhere and they are content.
If you don't know what you are missing how can you miss it?
With the tech stuff now and the wide range of activity or experiences of young children now by the time they are 10 they are bored to death.
The teens don't even know how to relate to each other on individual basis hardly without a text.
I know I don't relate to the mall or magazines and would definitely be whatever term Lizzie or wiki would come up with if honey would not be an issue. lol
So I would call them Pioneers.

 

[Tango Yankee]

So I am not the only one that this has happened to. :eusa_doh:

Sadly, no you are not. But it has been a long time since I've had it happen to me. (And not because I stopped holding doors for people, either! I think that most have gotten over that bit of misplaced anger.)

Cheers,
Tom

 

[John in Covina]

Carlisle -- You don't, by your own statements many times around the lounge, "live vintage." By taking off your hat, you can disappear into the crowd. People aren't doing snarky articles in British tabloids or making two-bit reality shows about your way of life. That being so, and with all due respect, *none of what we've been talking about since the first page of this thread applies to you.* I can't make it more clear than that.

Does that mean there can be no room for the sideliners?

What does it say to those that are working on the fringe but haven't or can't achieve a total vintage lifestyle?

How do you get "certified" as to having vintage lifestyle?

Is there a heirarchy or set advancements for ratings such amatuer, novice, journeyman, master?

 

[jamespowers]

Sadly, no you are not. But it has been a long time since I've had it happen to me. (And not because I stopped holding doors for people, either! I think that most have gotten over that bit of misplaced anger.)

Cheers,
Tom

Ok, that's three of us now. I haven't had it happen to me in a year or two but I am ready for the next time. I still hold doors open and have them held open for me. I say thank you and have had the same comments when I do it for them. I sincerely hope they have gotten over it.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Does that mean there can be no room for the sideliners?

What does it say to those that are working on the fringe but haven't or can't achieve a total vintage lifestyle?

How do you get "certified" as to having vintage lifestyle?

Is there a heirarchy or set advancements for ratings such amatuer, novice, journeyman, master?

Please read the thread from the beginning. It's not at all about what you wear or the car you drive, it's about feeling a sense of *cultural displacement* in the modern world.

 

[reetpleat]

As I wrote way back in post #3, I, and I believe a few others, had also been using that term for lack of another. Clinically, I'm sure it's the closest, but it's certainly not entirely accurate nor descriptive enough. Perhaps the services of a cultural psychologist are, indeed, needed.

Thanks for referencing 'Metathesiophobia', Mark. I'm sure somewhere in the deep, dark places of my psyche, this fear is at play. It might have been mentioned before on the lounge (I know I read it in the NY Times some 20 to 30 years ago) that people love nostalgia crazes (such as the 'Happy Days' craze in the 70s) because they know the outcome of the events. Everyone who was killed in WWII has already been killed. All the casualties have already been counted. We did not lose to the bad guys, and so it is a safe war and era to retreat to and many do because the one thing we do not know is what's going to happen tomorrow. Certainly, that frightens us.

And now to address this post from Reetpleet, who has given us another nut to crack.



I think is very true now that the price of vintage anything has gone up, but you and Mark and everyone else who's been doing this from the time before the Internet know of the treasure troves to be found at the Goodwill for a dollar. Never did I imagine 'old suits' would be come 'collectible' else I would have hoarded them back then. Same goes for furniture, and here's something we have to look at. Unless I come into some dough and get to move into a bigger place, I'm pretty much topped off with period furniture. Ikea, in its wisdom, makes furniture that is supposed to last all of five years because that's when most people get sick of their surroundings and want to redecorate. It's falling apart? Well, I was getting tired of looking at it anyway. Personally, as long as the furniture I have now lasts, I can't see any reason to change it. Same goes for the car.

And here I think we need to separate the 'whatever the word is' from the collector. I know a lot of vintage enthusiasts who are collectors of vintage jewelry, cars, clothes, etc., but probably wouldn't consider themselves to be 'whatever the word is's.

I have to think now.

Regards,

Jack

I was just kind of kidding about the consumer thing. I don't think our modern culture has any monopoly on consumerism. The term was coined in the 40s or 30s was it not?

However, it is interesting to note that a big part of the people you describe is possessing certain things. Although a guy who made his own vintage style suits, listened to old music on an mp3 and only bought products that existed back then, and built a house in a vintage style, and eschewed modern conveniences could be a true atavist. Although manufacturing his own furniture and other things might be a challenge.

I guess the difference between a collector and an atavist is that one defines themselves by the things they acquire, while an atavist sees them as simply a means to an end. Although an atavist may well be a collector as well.

 

[reetpleat]

Well, ask any gal in the Powder Room how many times someone has said, "Oh, you look like Dita." Or in my own case, "Oh, you look like Dita's mother." I think the value in self-definition is that we can at least say, "No, I'm actually --- whatever."

Occasionally I'll say to folks who ask why I look like I do "Well, I follow the traditional ways of my people." They tend to nod sagely and walk away contemplating.

Yes, but there is a certain contradiction in what even you do. To truly follow the cultural tradition of your people, you would wear whatever is decent quality on sale at the downtown small town clothing store. Ir maybe what is handed down to you or obtained at the dump. But wearing clothes of a different bygone style, (which have no cultural significance in the way that the native garb of an african tribe) you are doing something that your recent ancestors might consider odd, impractical or strange.

So, while you are living a vintage lifestyle, you are, at the same time, doing something rather strictly modern. Living as if it were a past era deliberately. As you mentioned, many people in the countryside lived much like the 1800s in the 20s. And I know that being a fan of the civil war, even walking battlefields, was a common gentleman's hobby in the latter part of the 1800s and early 1900s. But how many people outside of the last 20 years ever deliberately donned the clothing and acoutrement of the pas as a full time lifestyle?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I guess the difference between a collector and an atavist is that one defines themselves by the things they acquire, while an atavist sees them as simply a means to an end. Although an atavist may well be a collector as well.

Bingo. A collector buys a vintage can opener to display in her vintage-themed kitchen. An atavist buys a vintage can opener to open a can.

 

[Tango Yankee]

Hmmmm....

I was thinking that I'm getting mixed signals regarding whether or not the type of person Senator Jack is trying to find a proper descriptive term for is a state of mind/mindset alone, or a state of mind mixed with acting upon that state of mind. LizzieMaine refers to a feeling of "cultural displacement." I wasn't kidding when I said I feel that way almost all the time, but in terms of the culture that surrounds me where I live now. I felt more at home in a village in England than I do living in southern Ohio!

I suppose that, with the exception of those that self-identify themselves, the only ones that the term could be applied to would be those that are visibly working on applying the culture of the times they identify with to their lives in the now. It can get a bit confusing when you consider that there are likely those who enjoy wearing vintage clothes and using vintage consumer goods that are quite at home in the now and like it here.

So here is what I came up with: the difference between people like LizzieMaine, Senator Jack, et. al. and people like myself or even others who incorporate much more by way of vintage lifestyle into their lives but are quite happy with being in this time is this: If you were to drop LizzieMaine and Senator Jack into their preferred decades they'd like it. They'd feel right at home and be happy to stay, even if the cars aren't air conditioned.

If you were to take someone like myself and drop me into, say, the '40s, I might like it for a while but it wouldn't take long for me to want to get back to my air conditioned car, my computer and Internet access (tools, yes, but I find them invaluable), and I would not have a skill I could apply to the times as computer operations, small computers, and networking don't exist yet. I probably wouldn't even be able to drive a truck despite having some experience in that in this time.

Am I getting close here?

Regards,
Tom

 

[reetpleat]

I have always suspected that ex-punkers possess a certain quiet privilege in the post-generationalist discourse - second only to "lifestyle vintage" individuals like Lizzie and Joeri. (Why the latter are almost invariably female is also worth exploring.)

The ex-punks were "into it" sooner than most of us; they got into it deeper and more seriously; and they passed it on in an authentically social (quasi-tribal) fashion, without information technology. Most importantly, as urban nihilists, they were far enough outside society's values that their motives were less suspect. As did Black jazz musicians with vintage pop song, or gay males with camp and deco, they could meaningfully reinterpret and repurpose the past.

Doing that is a privilege in a progress-oriented, throwaway culture like ours, one that I suspect must be earned through outsider status - ideally, outsider group status. Without the group, one has no more agency than any other alienated individual, and must continually face the possibilities either that one's passions spring from private pathologies, or that one is merely a different flavor of deluded consumer, whose taste runs to goods not easily available.

Fascinating point. I meant similar in suggesting that the senator might be an ativist out of a punk rock ethos of rejecting the present culture. And turning to the 20s 30s 40s 50s and 60s was certainly not anathema to the hippie, punk and new wave cultures. these white urban underground cultures were big on this kind of revival as rejection. Think the hippie love of blues and folk music, rockabilly born out of new wave such as the stray cats, mod revival culture, etc.

I do not think that an ex punk has any real significance as if you can do it or not. but it may well have significance as to how you and others perceive it.

Atavist who is an ex punk, cool. Old guy who just feels good this way might be considered just weird.

I paint a soup can, i am a guy painting a realistic soup can. Andy warhol paints a soup can, he is a brillint artist commenting on the nature of modern art/consumerism/pop art etc

 

[jamespowers]

If you were to take someone like myself and drop me into, say, the '40s, I might like it for a while but it wouldn't take long for me to want to get back to my air conditioned car, my computer and Internet access (tools, yes, but I find them invaluable), and I would not have a skill I could apply to the times as computer operations, small computers, and networking don't exist yet. I probably wouldn't even be able to drive a truck despite having some experience in that in this time.

Drop me off in the 1940s with that machine please. I would be a millionaire in six months.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

Carlisle --

You don't, by your own statements many times around the lounge, "live vintage." By taking off your hat, you can disappear into the crowd. People aren't doing snarky articles in British tabloids or making two-bit reality shows about your way of life. That being so, and with all due respect, *none of what we've been talking about since the first page of this thread applies to you.*

I can't make it more clear than that.

Exactly! You need to actually have skin in the vintage wool so to speak.

What are you talking about???? It appears you want to get personal...PM me I have no problem discussing my "way" of life. Clearly from the thread where you are a bartender I am living an aspect of vintage. Moreover, my manner and way of being may be more liberal than most, but , them again I am not threatened by change. In fact I embrace it. Indeed, my masculinity is not threatened by doing things that were once traditionally performed by women.

Yet I have as much stake in the outcome of this discussion as you do. By your choosing to live a particular way of life you assume that you have proprietary share in the vintage life style. Not so Lizzie. Not by a long shot.

As a member of the Fedora Lounge this thread is as a applicable to me as it is to you.

It takes more than using myriad vintage appliances and dressing to embrace an era. It is more about perspective, having the essence of a period course through your veins, an appreciation for that which has come before and the ability to be able to discern what was real and what was romanticized.