Reeded vs. Unreeded Sweatband

[Art Fawcett]

This appears to be bamboo reed, making the hat fairly old. Turn of the last century hats tended to have steel reeding but today it's all plastic, at least here in the states.

 

[carouselvic]

Balibuntal

This appears to be bamboo reed, making the hat fairly old. Turn of the last century hats tended to have steel reeding but today it's all plastic, at least here in the states.

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[carouselvic]

resized w/ new ribbon by Optimo



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[Woodfluter]

This appears to be bamboo reed, making the hat fairly old. Turn of the last century hats tended to have steel reeding but today it's all plastic, at least here in the states.

Doubtless so, but not in the land of Oz. Akubras have a steel reed, and the curious can hold a strong magnet to the edge of the sweatband to confirm. I've had them trip the metal detectors in airports a couple of times, when set very low and during spells when TSA wanted you to keep your hat on rather than put it on the conveyor (they flip-flop about this).

Art, do you have any personal opinions about which construction is superior, aside from ease of installation and sweat wicking? I understand that Borsalino and some other European makes adhered to un-reeded and wondered why. I can't detect any improvement in ease of fit with the un-reeded fedoras I have.

- Bill

 

[job]

I was looking over the sweatbands on some of my hats. My Falcon Park Hattery custom seems to have a third option. It appears that the sweatband is folded over making its own reed/barrier.

My Borsalino has no reed at all and its brand new.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Art, do you have any personal opinions about which construction is superior, aside from ease of installation and sweat wicking? I understand that Borsalino and some other European makes adhered to un-reeded and wondered why. I can't detect any improvement in ease of fit with the un-reeded fedoras I have.
- Bill

I don't really Bill as each have their own pro's & cons. Bamboo can deteriorate quicker than plastic or steel and add nothing to the comfort factor so, it must be pricing. Steel is as strong as it gets but over time works holes in the leather and rusts so, must be pricing. Plastic is strong, won't rust, doesn't cause as much irritation to the leather so it is an improvement quality wise but adds nothing to the comfort level. A reed less sweat was supposed to be more comfortable and remove two steps in the process saving much dinero. You no longer have to fold the reed backing & slide in the reed but you also don't sew the reed to the sweat. It was sold as a comfort improvement but is really a cost savings. Unfortunately, when the thread looses some of it's strength, the sweat is out.

Job, this is a typical reeded sweat. What you are seeing is his hand sewing of it in the hat. The backing is folded over the reed, then sewn to the sweat, then the maker sews it in the hat through the backing.

 

[Joshbru3]

I have often wondered how hatters were able to attach the reed tape/reed to the sweatband leather. I was sure that there was a special machine, but wasn't sure about the model numbers.

I found one vintage example that Singer made, the 37-3.

If you look close, you can see how the reed tape feeds into the sewing machine and mates up with the sweatband leather.

I was also looking over the Rocky Mountain Hat Company website at :http://www.rockymountainhatcompany.com/gear.html

They have what looks like a later model singer machine which also attaches reed tape. They don't list the model number..

Does anybody know what model this is?

My question to the hatters on the lounge, are there any other Singer models that are specifically made for attaching reed tape to sweatband leather? Can you supply us with the model numbers?

Also which machines can do the really early 1900's tight "I" and "V" stitching?

EX.

&

 

[job]

Thanks for the explanation Art. I love hats but know little about the construction of one.

 

[Woodfluter]

I don't really Bill as each have their own pro's & cons. Bamboo can deteriorate quicker than plastic or steel and add nothing to the comfort factor so, it must be pricing. Steel is as strong as it gets but over time works holes in the leather and rusts so, must be pricing. Plastic is strong, won't rust, doesn't cause as much irritation to the leather so it is an improvement quality wise but adds nothing to the comfort level. A reed less sweat was supposed to be more comfortable and remove two steps in the process saving much dinero. You no longer have to fold the reed backing & slide in the reed but you also don't sew the reed to the sweat. It was sold as a comfort improvement but is really a cost savings.

Thanks for the full explanation, Art. I wasn't thinking about reed materials per se, but very glad you answered that too.

I'll strain to ask one more intelligent question. About sweat wicking.
Now that I think about it, I only have two un-reeded fedoras and they are both Borsalinos.
Believe I haven't worn them in sweat-inducing conditions. Much.
Have worn many other felt hats in hot weather, and I sweat profusely.
I haven't had indications of sweat oozing onto the ribbon with any.

I've only had that problem with one hat, a recent Milan (pseudo-Milan?) Dobbs.
Looking at that one, it has a peculiar construction.
The stitching that binds the pseudo-leather (ugh!) sweatband to the reed tape also attaches the latter to the hat body.
In other words, one set of stitching all the way through. Never saw that before. Definitely economics.
And sweat stains the ribbon at certain contact points with the stitching, and not at others.

So I'm inclined to believe there might, just maybe(?) be some real value to the wicking argument.
OTOH, weird non-absorbent sweat material might have something to do with it.
Your thoughts?

- Bill

 

[Art Fawcett]

Thanks for the full explanation, Art. I wasn't thinking about reed materials per se, but very glad you answered that too.


I'll strain to ask one more intelligent question. About sweat wicking.
Now that I think about it, I only have two un-reeded fedoras and they are both Borsalinos.
Believe I haven't worn them in sweat-inducing conditions. Much.
Have worn many other felt hats in hot weather, and I sweat profusely.
I haven't had indications of sweat oozing onto the ribbon with any.

I've only had that problem with one hat, a recent Milan (pseudo-Milan?) Dobbs.
Looking at that one, it has a peculiar construction.
The stitching that binds the pseudo-leather (ugh!) sweatband to the reed tape also attaches the latter to the hat body.
In other words, one set of stitching all the way through. Never saw that before. Definitely economics.
And sweat stains the ribbon at certain contact points with the stitching, and not at others.

So I'm inclined to believe there might, just maybe(?) be some real value to the wicking argument.
OTOH, weird non-absorbent sweat material might have something to do with it.
Your thoughts?

- Bill

There's a lot there Bill. Wicking has always been a problem and it's more of a problem with non reeded sweats for the very reason you describe. Stitching directly through the felt and sweat at the band line rather than the reeding tape give a direct route. At least with stitching through the tape rather than the sweat it's a less direct route.

I suspect much of the problem with your Milan is a composite sweatband, used in much of the industry. For those of you that are new to the field, the cheapest way to make sweatband ( over simplified for clarity sake) is to pick up the scraps from the cutting floor, grind them up, add glue and roll out as new leather, then cut the sweats from that. If it were wood it would be called "particle board". This is why the upper end hatters usually emphasize roan sweats ( real leather).

In thinking about it you touched on something I've been looking for for years & that is what is called "onion skin" which is a thin plastic type material that used to be sewn behind the sweats to create a barrier from sweat. The only person I know to have sourced it won't give up the sourcing. If there are any of you out there in a position to help I'd really appreciate it. It isn't a necessity but would add another level of excellence to the overall hat. Finding who can make it seems herculean..


Don't know if I answered your question Bill but it sure fealt good to use "herculean" in a sentence. ))

 

[job]

I've never seen a sweatband like this one.

 

[rlk]

I've never seen a sweatband like this one.

The above is a non-reeded sweatband with a reeded front portion, not stitched to the felt, which serves to ventilate and inhibit wicking of sweat into the hat proper at the forehead.

 

[Art Fawcett]

I've not seen one like that either Job...VERY interesting hat!!

 

[Wally in Cincy]

In thinking about it you touched on something I've been looking for for years & that is what is called "onion skin" which is a thin plastic type material that used to be sewn behind the sweats to create a barrier from sweat. ))

That sounds tracing paper that is used in drafting. Also called bumwad. It's paper, not plastic though.

http://www.artsuppliesonline.com/catalog.cfm?cata_id=6011

 

[Dinerman]

Unfortunately, not the same thing. The onionskin is a thin plastic material, not paper. The whole idea is to create a waterproof barrier through which perspiration can't pass.

It's a great idea, but I find that it causes as many problems as it solves. I've seen cases of the onionskin causing the leather to go bad because the sweat has nowhere to go. A lot of the time, the onionskin will stick to the back of the leather and start getting pretty funky. On later examples, especially Adam made hats, they used a thicker gague plastic- more like a thin vinyl than the fibrous stuff used on earlier hats, and when exposed to heat, it shrinks up something fierce. I see this on the earlier material, too. It's an easy fix, though- you just flip the sweatband and tear it out, and it goes back to its original size.

 

[tealseal]

I don't mean to ask silly questions, but I just cannot see how the reed "flares" or "bells" the sweatband away from the felt. In my Fed and my Saxon, both are reeded, but it looks to me like the sweatband lies against the inside of the crown. I feel like I'm missing something fundamental...your help would be much apprecated!

 

[Wally in Cincy]

Thanks for the clarification Dinerman. Keep up the good work.

 

[alanfgag]

Why it's called reeded

Sweatband reeding material (with leather sweatband removed) with natural reed exposed. Avoids the verdigris stained felt from metallic reed that I've seen on too many 1940s-50s hats in otherwise good condition. From a Stetson western dating two-three decades earlier than the dime.

 

[randooch]

That dude on the dime would look swell in a fedora.

 

[Joshbru3]

Sweatband reeding material (with leather sweatband removed) with natural reed exposed. Avoids the verdigris stained felt from metallic reed that I've seen on too many 1940s-50s hats in otherwise good condition. From a Stetson western dating two-three decades earlier than the dime.

I have several old hats with a natural reed. I always thought it was kind of cool how natural reeding was used at one time. Whats interesting is that I have a couple derbies from the 20's and early 30's that already used a metal reed. I wonder when most large manufactures went from natural reeds to metal ones. Those metal ones had a history of splitting right through the reed tape over time, especially on early derbies.