Real McCoy's not expensive enough for you? Try this...

[dannyk]

Though I’m new here I’ve been looking at TFL for over 2 years now. I think this whole argument is what makes us, “us.” There are those that want original deadstock, super accurate repros, vintage inspired looks, and those that want modern day but still made by hand or bespoke. The combining thread is our passion. Whatever your niche is here we’re adamant about it. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. But whether it’s Schott, Aero, Vanson, RMC or Toys and so on and so forth we all just love the traditions, history, details and that this world even exists. We all appreciate the art and beauty. So I try to avoid the things that don’t interest me or pique my curiosity or that I want. But we’re all snobs here for whatever our thing is. But I also like that because there are so many opinions and experts on all the different styles and makers. Sometimes it’s even more fun learning the history of the company or style of jacket then collecting the jackets themselves are.

 

[Edward]

In all the years I've been buying electric guitars, I went through various phases. Firstly, there was the "above a certain price is crazy!" stage. Then you learn to appreciate the differences, and think the expensive stuff is worth it. True mastery comes when you can appreciate the difference between instruments at different prices but are able to buy the cheaper option with confidence if you feel the price difference is not justified by the actual difference. In that world, the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard. The reason I own an Epiphone Les Paul and have on interest in buying "the real thing" is not because I can't tell the difference; the 'real' LP is twice the guitar, but for my needs that doesn't make it worth five or six times the price, as seems to be the case. Clothes are much the same, with the exception that they wear out faster than guitars if used in anger. I can appreciate all sorts of jackets. My Schott is markedly better than the cheaper P-style jacket I replaced with it. Twice the jacket - but I bought it used because while for me it was worth twice the price of the first, it wasn't worth the new price (new Schotts in the UK are chasing Vanson money). I'm happy to pay the big ticket money for my Aeros, but there are other, more expensive jackets that some might prefer which just aren't worth significantly more to me - it's all subjective, and people will have their own preferences, whether based on sizing availability, fit, leather, branding..... you name it. I certainly wouldn't shy away from one of the Japanese jackets if I was there and could try it on, and it came in at a price with which I was comfortable. The weak pound has killed a lot of both Japanese and US made stuff for me; not the fault of those companies themselves, who aren't charging more, it's just hard for me to justify a near doubling of the price because sterling is in the toilet.

I've seen 'one offs' several times in this thread. I'm not familiar with that phrase. Do you guys mean 'one ofs' ??

IT's an expression a lot of the English use, 'one-off'. IT's always annoyed me no end because I agree with you: one-of is grammatically correct. No idea where it came from.

Speaking of size, I don't imagine that Japanese guy in the photo is a giant who started a company making jackets too small for him to wear, so I'm guessing you're about a size 36 or so. So you can wear the jackets. That's fine. Good for you! Enjoy! I can't. I'm a size 48. Issue A-2s also came in size 48. RMC jackets don't. Big black mark against them right there in my book.

I can understand where they're coming from - if they have no real demand for bigger sizes, why do them? I agree, though, it can be frustrating for those of us who need a larger size, especially when it would be technically authentic (as opposed to the hypothetical Farbe debate between two fifty year old men about whose size 54 A2 is more historically correct.....). I find with Buzz looking at them online, I seem to float around the top end of what they do. This makes me wary of buying anything in the mail, especially from abroad, as it's such a hassle to return. It seems that a lot of the less well known Japanese brands are perfectly happy with sticking to the Japanese market, where average sizes are smaller. (Also the fits tend to be slimmer, ime).

As I've said about other brands, 'over-built' jackets are IMHO less accurate reproductions. There was a war on. Jackets were made as quickly as possible, to the lowest possible standards, with whatever acceptable materials, by people with the lowest possible training hours. That's the ultimate goal of the best reproduction, surely?

'Good enough for government work'.

Better than that is fantasy, is it not?

(Again, please don't read this with any malice or ill-intent, I'm merely discussing ideas).

I think this is an interesting notion. I've seen it in action with collectors of originals - for instance, G1s made after (if memory serves) 1968, when the collar went from mouton to synthetic, and the period when they were cowhide and not goat. are often seen as not worth buying by collectors, as not up to scratch, yet arguably they have a greater authenticity than any of the repros. Of course, on the other hand there was the looney that used to come here with various usernames that would always give himself away by shrieking about any and all reproductions as being "poor quality" because they were not original, period, issued-items. To an extent it seems inevitable to me that we will see repros becoming the 'fantasy' jackets, as you put it. For one thing, it takes a lot of investment to get going on doing accurate A2s - you have to get the right equipment, the right hides, train people in the right skills - and copying the originals down to the most minor specs is much more work than the original manufacturers had, who merely had to make their jackets conform to the specs given, not attempt to perfect the collar shape of a Star or the pocket flap shape of a Roughwear. Then you add in the fact that nowadays we're dealing with a niche market, so you're not talking economies of scale that you could factor in if you were producing them by the thousand. By March 1944, there were 2.4 million airmen in the USAAF. Not all of them were issued with A2s, but a substantial chunk were. Are there even a million A2 repros out there between Aero, ELC, the American and Japanese repop folks? All these things add up. Then there's also market positioning: you have to cover your costs and make a profit, sure, but also charge too much and noone will buy, yet charge too little and some folks will turn their nose up. I'm reminded of the software company that created a £500 professional software package and couldn't sell it. Thy called in the marketing consultants who looked at the software, the ads, everything. Their advice: double the price. The company did so, and could barely keep up with orders after that. Perceived market value is everything, sometimes. Add all that into the mix, and you're automatically looking at a more expensive piece. This, of course, is when the customer starts to expect more for their money than the standard ,run of the mill, mass produced A2 as was made in the war era.... I agree, the psychology of it looks odd, but when you work back through all the factors, I can see where it comes from.

Many of these heritage brands thrive on people’s idea that to be well dressed in a casual environment you need to wear very expensive workwear. For example, jeans can’t be Levi’s... they have to be 20oz thick from that unknown Japanese mill. What is funny is that then people buy these brands with the idea that these days that’s the only way they have to achieve the look you could achieve in the past with cheapo stuff (like Levi’s). In my personal experience I find that is not true at all (especially with denim)

It is and it isn't. Sometimes it is very much possible to find very decent stuff at much less; there's no doubt that in the UK when it comes to things like Japanese jeans, you can pay out a lot for the exclusivity factor, the weak pound, and other intangibles. Other times find that because a particular vintage style is far out of contemporary fashion, you simply can't find a 'budget version', and so the only option is to spend on the high end. I once bought a pair of (fairly shoddy, tbh) vintage repop trousers on deep discount for about GBP£30. My local supermarket trousers were better quality at half that, but unwearable to me simply because fashion dictates a low waistband and a skinny leg to the point where I would not even find them comfortable, let alone aesthetically pleasing. My point being that sometimes you can do a great look for much less, other times you have to pay more for the high end stuff as it's the only way to get the look/cut one desires.

 

[dannyk]

In all the years I've been buying electric guitars, I went through various phases. Firstly, there was the "above a certain price is crazy!" stage. Then you learn to appreciate the differences, and think the expensive stuff is worth it. True mastery comes when you can appreciate the difference between instruments at different prices but are able to buy the cheaper option with confidence if you feel the price difference is not justified by the actual difference. In that world, the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard. The reason I own an Epiphone Les Paul and have on interest in buying "the real thing" is not because I can't tell the difference; the 'real' LP is twice the guitar, but for my needs that doesn't make it worth five or six times the price, as seems to be the case. Clothes are much the same, with the exception that they wear out faster than guitars if used in anger. I can appreciate all sorts of jackets. My Schott is markedly better than the cheaper P-style jacket I replaced with it. Twice the jacket - but I bought it used because while for me it was worth twice the price of the first, it wasn't worth the new price (new Schotts in the UK are chasing Vanson money). I'm happy to pay the big ticket money for my Aeros, but there are other, more expensive jackets that some might prefer which just aren't worth significantly more to me - it's all subjective, and people will have their own preferences, whether based on sizing availability, fit, leather, branding..... you name it. I certainly wouldn't shy away from one of the Japanese jackets if I was there and could try it on, and it came in at a price with which I was comfortable. The weak pound has killed a lot of both Japanese and US made stuff for me; not the fault of those companies themselves, who aren't charging more, it's just hard for me to justify a near doubling of the price because sterling is in the toilet.



IT's an expression a lot of the English use, 'one-off'. IT's always annoyed me no end because I agree with you: one-of is grammatically correct. No idea where it came from.



I can understand where they're coming from - if they have no real demand for bigger sizes, why do them? I agree, though, it can be frustrating for those of us who need a larger size, especially when it would be technically authentic (as opposed to the hypothetical Farbe debate between two fifty year old men about whose size 54 A2 is more historically correct.....). I find with Buzz looking at them online, I seem to float around the top end of what they do. This makes me wary of buying anything in the mail, especially from abroad, as it's such a hassle to return. It seems that a lot of the less well known Japanese brands are perfectly happy with sticking to the Japanese market, where average sizes are smaller. (Also the fits tend to be slimmer, ime).



I think this is an interesting notion. I've seen it in action with collectors of originals - for instance, G1s made after (if memory serves) 1968, when the collar went from mouton to synthetic, and the period when they were cowhide and not goat. are often seen as not worth buying by collectors, as not up to scratch, yet arguably they have a greater authenticity than any of the repros. Of course, on the other hand there was the looney that used to come here with various usernames that would always give himself away by shrieking about any and all reproductions as being "poor quality" because they were not original, period, issued-items. To an extent it seems inevitable to me that we will see repros becoming the 'fantasy' jackets, as you put it. For one thing, it takes a lot of investment to get going on doing accurate A2s - you have to get the right equipment, the right hides, train people in the right skills - and copying the originals down to the most minor specs is much more work than the original manufacturers had, who merely had to make their jackets conform to the specs given, not attempt to perfect the collar shape of a Star or the pocket flap shape of a Roughwear. Then you add in the fact that nowadays we're dealing with a niche market, so you're not talking economies of scale that you could factor in if you were producing them by the thousand. By March 1944, there were 2.4 million airmen in the USAAF. Not all of them were issued with A2s, but a substantial chunk were. Are there even a million A2 repros out there between Aero, ELC, the American and Japanese repop folks? All these things add up. Then there's also market positioning: you have to cover your costs and make a profit, sure, but also charge too much and noone will buy, yet charge too little and some folks will turn their nose up. I'm reminded of the software company that created a £500 professional software package and couldn't sell it. Thy called in the marketing consultants who looked at the software, the ads, everything. Their advice: double the price. The company did so, and could barely keep up with orders after that. Perceived market value is everything, sometimes. Add all that into the mix, and you're automatically looking at a more expensive piece. This, of course, is when the customer starts to expect more for their money than the standard ,run of the mill, mass produced A2 as was made in the war era.... I agree, the psychology of it looks odd, but when you work back through all the factors, I can see where it comes from.



It is and it isn't. Sometimes it is very much possible to find very decent stuff at much less; there's no doubt that in the UK when it comes to things like Japanese jeans, you can pay out a lot for the exclusivity factor, the weak pound, and other intangibles. Other times find that because a particular vintage style is far out of contemporary fashion, you simply can't find a 'budget version', and so the only option is to spend on the high end. I once bought a pair of (fairly shoddy, tbh) vintage repop trousers on deep discount for about GBP£30. My local supermarket trousers were better quality at half that, but unwearable to me simply because fashion dictates a low waistband and a skinny leg to the point where I would not even find them comfortable, let alone aesthetically pleasing. My point being that sometimes you can do a great look for much less, other times you have to pay more for the high end stuff as it's the only way to get the look/cut one desires.

The money and economy you mention is also crucial. I’m sure amongst us here are people with 1 jacket they love because it’s all they can afford. And those with 300 because they can. We all know that most of this stuff isn’t actually worth paying. Even at the low end of the tier. But if you make 500,000 a year maybe a 5,000 dollar jacket doesn’t matter to you and is “worth it” cause you want it. The markup on most anything not just jackets but you name it, is insane and based on what it cost to make and then a profit doesn’t justify it. Then you take into account are you looking for an art piece or a daily wearer, do you want a jacket because you actually ride a bike, or do you want...point being there’s just too much variation on justification.

 

[Blackadder]

Many things said by the fellow loungers are true to them. Here is my flip side of the coin
1) The price of RMC is expensive compared to Aero in Western countries. For me, I pay no import taxes on products bought from overseas. A lot of Japanese stores offer Japanese sales tax free on the internet whilst I have to pay the UK sales tax on any products purchased from Aero and Eastman. The price difference to me is hence not that great if you compare the Japanese price (excluding sales tax) with the UK price (including sales tax). Oh let's not forget the more expensive shipping fees from Europe.
2) I also find the Aero and Eastman fit problematic to me. Despite the custom option, the proportionality of the sleeve width, arm holes etc are still on Western norm owing to probably the patterns. All my Lost Worlds and Aero fit me in length but the sleeves are too wide. To make the jacket fit me to my taste and preference, they have to tweak the pattern like RM did. So why would I go for a custom with all the troubles when I can get it off the rack. After all custom does not equal bespoke service and while I would go to Savile Row to make a suit without much trouble, I doubt I can have Aero cut me a pattern in person at least not at the price we are looking at (my friend had to send his Aero back because of the sleeve width problem despite having already told them to take in the sleeves by a few inches).

On a side note about things aforementioned
The guy who bought the Zero is actually the owner of the Few/RMNZ, the former business partner of RM's former owner and Toys McCoy current owner. This guy opened a factory in NZ to make leather jackets. RM leather jackets used to be made in NZ until the takeover by the current owner and the change in management. So the older RM leather jackets were actually ordered from NZ. You can find tags on older RM leather jackets that read made in NZ and they were not made with Shiniki leather.
The current owner of RM is indeed a tall guy. He is the second person from the left and the second guy from the right is his son, a former Japanese baseball player. Neither men are short and slim by Japanese or Western standard. His son
http://japanesebaseballcards.blogspot.hk/2011/03/kento-tsujimoto-of-new-york-mets.html

RM produce a slimmer cut of classic designs because that is or was the trend in clothings. Older RM designs under previous management are cut more like Buzz Rickson's. The current owner of RM is a collector and businessman. He does not seem to be a hands-on guy like the previous owner. He ventured into clothing by starting a company called Nylon that deals in jeans. He not only bought RM but also Denime when they went into financial trouble. He sold Denime later. His deals with overseas and local dealers are well structured, often managed to persuade the dealers to open exclusive stores to promote the brands like fashion houses. In fact IMO and probably in truth according to his interview with Esquire, he is running his company like fashion houses. As such the pricing overseas are agreeably pretty ridiculous. The previous owner on the other hand is a workshop type of person e.g. as the current owner of Toys McCoy, he still hand paints some of the products himself.
https://www.esquire.com/style/mens-fashion/a12564/the-real-mccoys-japan-013012/
Here are some Japanese articles for Big J
http://bunshun.jp/articles/-/4750
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/ザ・リアルマッコイズ
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE_FEW

 

[Edward]

The money and economy you mention is also crucial. I’m sure amongst us here are people with 1 jacket they love because it’s all they can afford. And those with 300 because they can. We all know that most of this stuff isn’t actually worth paying. Even at the low end of the tier. But if you make 500,000 a year maybe a 5,000 dollar jacket doesn’t matter to you and is “worth it” cause you want it. The markup on most anything not just jackets but you name it, is insane and based on what it cost to make and then a profit doesn’t justify it. Then you take into account are you looking for an art piece or a daily wearer, do you want a jacket because you actually ride a bike, or do you want...point being there’s just too much variation on justification.

Completely. Everything is relative. I remember a time when Wested money (in those days, £140GBP for an Indy) seemed like a lot; the first time I saw the Aero and ELC websites I decided they were too much for me, as they wanted GBP300 for a jacket!

Income is definitely a factor in determining how these things shake down; when I was a student, I saved for two years to buy a USA-made Fender. Now I can earn in an hour what I did in a week in my student Summer job (not adjusting for inflation, but still!), that huge amount of money doesn't seem so much any more. I very much enjoy being in a position where I can have and enjoy more than one jacket, though at the same time I'm equally aware that there's something to be said for Herself's philosophy of have less and appreciate it more'.

Many things said by the fellow loungers are true to them. Here is my flip side of the coin
1) The price of RMC is expensive compared to Aero in Western countries. For me, I pay no import taxes on products bought from overseas. A lot of Japanese stores offer Japanese sales tax free on the internet whilst I have to pay the UK sales tax on any products purchased from Aero and Eastman. The price difference to me is hence not that great if you compare the Japanese price (excluding sales tax) with the UK price (including sales tax). Oh let's not forget the more expensive shipping fees from Europe.

Very significant; that's a big factor in why Aero will always make more sense for me than, say, LW or Thedi. I'm sure it's an issue with the pricing of Buzz in the UK too.

2) I also find the Aero and Eastman fit problematic to me. Despite the custom option, the proportionality of the sleeve width, arm holes etc are still on Western norm owing to probably the patterns. All my Lost Worlds and Aero fit me in length but the sleeves are too wide. To make the jacket fit me to my taste and preference, they have to tweak the pattern like RM did. So why would I go for a custom with all the troubles when I can get it off the rack. After all custom does not equal bespoke service and while I would go to Savile Row to make a suit without much trouble, I doubt I can have Aero cut me a pattern in person at least not at the price we are looking at (my friend had to send his Aero back because of the sleeve width problem despite having already told them to take in the sleeves by a few inches).

I think part of the problem is that often people confuse besp0ke with made to measure. There's a world of difference between tweaking a stock pattern to your measurements (made to measure), and bespoke, which entails having a pattern drawn up exclusively for you and based on your body. There's definitely a lot to be said for finding an OTR supplier that does what you like and that you can rely on. You also can't beat avoiding a wait: one of my favourite jackets is my Aero Highwayman that I was able to buy stock.

RM produce a slimmer cut of classic designs because that is or was the trend in clothings. Older RM designs under previous management are cut more like Buzz Rickson's. The current owner of RM is a collector and businessman. He does not seem to be a hands-on guy like the previous owner. He ventured into clothing by starting a company called Nylon that deals in jeans. He not only bought RM but also Denime when they went into financial trouble. He sold Denime later. His deals with overseas and local dealers are well structured, often managed to persuade the dealers to open exclusive stores to promote the brands like fashion houses. In fact IMO and probably in truth according to his interview with Esquire, he is running his company like fashion houses. As such the pricing overseas are agreeably pretty ridiculous.

I always had the impression it had to do with Japanese folks being, typically, a different body shape than Westerners, and so they recut the jackets to have the right look on a different body-type. Didn't think of it as a fashion thing. You're right, though - if they're being promoted in the fashion mindset in the West, that does lead to an inflated price in terms of it arising from brand management and market placement. I should show some of these prices to my dad: I'll never forget his total bemusement when I started dressing from the surplus shop as a clothing choice; in his day, he reckons, people only wore military surplus if they really couldn't afford anything else. Some of these prices would blow his mind!

 

[BobJ]

I've seen 'one offs' several times in this thread. I'm not familiar with that phrase. Do you guys mean 'one ofs' ??

 

[BobJ]

@HD - Oops... didn't see that El Marro has already answered you

 

[dudewuttheheck]

@dudewhattheheck, you said;
"People who buy RMC tend to be people who are into high quality and heritage..such as...myself" whilst the rest of us are merely into "leather jackets".
Ok, so how many do you own? One?
Or do you have many? I'm genuinely asking.

The fact that RMC only makes jackets for small guys kind of indicates that their target demographic isn't the majority of non-Japanese men.

They don't want my custom, why should I cut them some slack for offering off-the-peg jackets at twice the price of an Aero?

I know you've read my comments about authentic jacket lengths and quality (and all the trouble that's got me) so I'm very interested in what makes you a connoisseur of high-quality and heritage clothing (urghh, hate that expression), whilst I'm presumably not? It's quite a claim to make for yourself.

Remember, I've seen the photo of you with the drainpipe shiny suit pants

I suspect that you're attracted to these brands for the exclusivity and high price point; it makes you feel good. That's fine if so, it's natural to do things that make you feel good.

And no, I shall not go to denimbro for information about leather jackets. Sounds like a 'niche' pick-up site.

@Benj,
Hello. How many RMC jackets do you own?

But it does seem that I was wrong about RMC's owner. It's that other guy. I can admit when I'm wrong.

Speaking of size, I don't imagine that Japanese guy in the photo is a giant who started a company making jackets too small for him to wear, so I'm guessing you're about a size 36 or so. So you can wear the jackets. That's fine. Good for you! Enjoy! I can't. I'm a size 48. Issue A-2s also came in size 48. RMC jackets don't. Big black mark against them right there in my book.

Surveys? I'm afraid I have none. I've only lived here for 20 years and had but a couple of hundred random conversations with Japanese jacket owners in coffee shops and stuff. But that is a lot of anecdotal evidence.

I'm honestly not trying to pick fights with anyone. RMC jackets are way more expensive than the competition, and not made to order. And they only make small sizes, so naturally they won't get a lot of love amongst westerners, I think (but hey, maybe I'm wrong about that too. Could be).

As I've said about other brands, 'over-built' jackets are IMHO less accurate reproductions. There was a war on. Jackets were made as quickly as possible, to the lowest possible standards, with whatever acceptable materials, by people with the lowest possible training hours. That's the ultimate goal of the best reproduction, surely?

'Good enough for government work'.

Better than that is fantasy, is it not?

(Again, please don't read this with any malice or ill-intent, I'm merely discussing ideas).

I'm not saying you are not a fan of high quality clothing. Everyone here pretty much is. My point was that there is clearly a difference between the majority of people on this forum who tend to focus on leather jackets and the people like Ben and I who are also on other forums and see leather jackets as only a part of our wardrobe that all comes from a similar idea. For example, Freewheelers also makes incredible, but very expensive leather jackets, but they also make shirts, trousers, other jackets, etc. I own shirts, trousers, and a cotton jacket from them, but no leather jacket. I'm not saying that this makes me superior in any way. It's simply a difference that I have noticed between people on this forum and the people I talk to on other forums.

You are not merely discussing ideas. You are specifically attacking my character by heavily implying that I see myself as some cocky kid who thinks he has superior taste to everyone and likes to show it off. First of all, of course I prefer my taste in clothing to everyone else's. Who on here doesn't? Secondly, if you really think that I wear what I wear because I like to revel in the high price point, you are completely incorrect. In the first place, I paid significantly under western retail price for my RMC jacket, rendering it essentially the exact same price as a Good Wear. Secondly, if you have failed to notice, most people on this site here do not agree with me. As a result, expressing my opinions about jackets and what I own does not usually end in me being showered with compliments. Furthermore, in other interactions I have had with other people who like denim, boots, leather, etc, most of them think my taste in leather jackets is insane as well. That's fine, but my point is that I get a lot less attention and praise from people with my clothing than I would if I bought and wore Red Wing and Aero instead. I own and where what I own because I personally love them and enjoy them and for no other reason. Further, I do not even believe RMC and Himel are the absolute best. That title in my mind goes to Good Wear and Good Wear alone. I had to return that jacket because it didn't fit so why not let me enjoy what I like?

I think I recall Superfluous commenting once about his compulsive behavior to search out something 'more' all the time (hence his handle), cars, clothes, that sort of thing.
I wouldn't knock that.
I do think that some people want more exclusivity, something more 'special', and longer wait times, higher prices, over-building and exotic materials appeal to that instinct.

I'm only concerned with accuracy. I think it's the difference between a reproduction and a costume. If other people aren't, that's perfectly fine, but we will not be in agreement about how 'good' something is.

With modern technology we could make a banging new Stonehenge, with perfectly smooth flat stones and square corners and all, but I don't think anyone would say it has an authentic feel.

Being only concerned with accuracy is fine, but you have to understand that it's all costume, right? Everything that we wear is costume because even if your flight jacket is an original, you are not a WWII pilot and even if you are a WWII pilot, you are not fighting a WWII battle right now. At least I can admit that what I'm wearing is a costume.

lol I think that's just me.

But I still don't get it - They make nice jackets, well constructed and all but compared to some other brands, the leather they use is thin, sometimes flimsy thin and they're all OTR, which is why I don't get the price. I'd rank them at Schott price range but not two freaking grands.

I'm not anti-RMC, I'm anti-senseless pricing. It had become a standard for the Japanese brand to be asking several thousand dollars for the same old designs they constantly copy off each other all the time. They're all OTR, all the same old Shinki and all just old.

But then again, I often see this sorta thing, where people are convinced that everything coming out of Japan is somehow magically superior. Same with people who are convinced that anything that costs more is also better.

It's not thin and flimsy compared to most other brands. First of all, Shinki is slightly thicker and certainly more stubborn and stiff than Vicenza. Also, every Schott jacket that I have tried on has felt less or equally substantial to my Shinki Himel jackets. I know there are thicker leathers out there, but that does not make Shinki automatically flimsy. Why do people not say this about Thedi's leathers?

Things that cost more are not always better. Why do you think we are not into mainstream fashion? Actually, having been to Japan, there is a reason why Japan excels at producing high quality items more than most other countries. I am not saying that everything coming out of Japan is inherently better (Iron Heart has some really terrible leather jackets made in Japan and Mister Freedom's stuff made by Sugar Cane in Japan has had extreme quality control issues), but it is a cultural thing for them to want to make the best items they possibly can. Look at Grand Seiko, for example. Their watches are known to have better finishing than Rolex and other brands that cost twice as much.


Also, I wear my Himel and RMC jackets EVERYWHERE. I have gotten them soaked in rain and never baby them. I only don't get to wear them more because it's so darn warm where I live.

 

[Big J]

@Blackadder, thank you very much for the link! I admit that ownership of these companies confuses me!

@Edward, @Benj, yeah if I'm honest, I'm seriously peeved that this company doesn't make my size since it's an actual issue size. It kind of makes a mockery of their authenticity pap because clearly cost issues are more important to them.

@Benj, with all due respect, 40 is not a large size, is it? Isn't it a kind of 'medium'? If not, I must be bigger than my mental image of myself!

@dudewhatheheck, ok, so now I'm confused. A couple of pages back you say that RMC customers are people who appreciate quality and heritage (and all that stuff), and you don't think they deserve slamming over their prices, but...
Now you're saying that your one RMC jacket was a second hand deal for a couple of hundred bucks? Are you saying that you bought it from a guy who really is an RMC customer, and that you are an eBay customer or something?

Now I'm thinking that you have an image of the kind of person who buys a new RMC, and you're trying to buy into that image.

I never called you a 'cocky kid'. I think you can be kind of arrogant when you talk about how you have a superior appreciation of clothes, with the implication that the rest of us don't. You're age hasn't got anything to do with it, and I never suggested it did.

As for the whole 'japanese quality' myth, for every example of Japanese OCD attention to detail you can give me, I can show you an example of negligent and criminal behavior;
How about Takata airbags?
Sharp accounting scandal?
Olympus accounting scandal?
Kobe steel data falsification for aircraft and reactor components?
Mitsubishi emissions cheating?
Nissan using substandard metals?
Tepco falsifying critical component inspections on reactors?
Food mislabeling scandals?
Minamata sickness?

I could go on all day about 'japanese quality'. It's just the same as anywhere else; there are good individuals and good companies, but there are also terrible ones. There is no innate Japanese quality that leads to improved production.

 

[ton312]

The reason Japanese jackets sell for the prices they do has nothing to do with quality of material or superior construction. It is based on social engineering. They have mastered their brand in high gloss. Not to say they aren't incredibly well made, they in fact are but they are selling an image as much as a jacket for sure. Goosenecked panhead and huge chain wallet...says it all.

 

[Benj]

I'd agree that I don't find Real McCoy's all that authentic and I find it strange when that is used as a descriptor for the brand. I'm not saying that a 40 is a big size, it is like a medium. I'm just saying that I'm not small, very average by American standards, and yet they still make jacket sizes 2 sizes above mine. I'm sure there are many people 6+ft and 200+lbs that would fit in real mccoys jackets so it think its a little silly to complain they only make jackets for tiny Japanese people.

Really though, I find your interpretation of @dudewuttheheck's position super gross. You assume some strange things:

1. He categorizes ranks people as "non-RMC buyers", "ebay buyers", and "RMC buyers"
2. His RMC jacket was a couple hundred bucks, and he bought it from eBay
3. He desperately wants to be in the "RMC buyer" category, which you believe he believes is special and above all else

Fact is none of these are true. @dudewuttheheck bought his RMC A2 from a Japanese retailer for the Japanese price, which is substantially lower than the western price at what I would argue is the true value of the product. Also, I'm sure that if he could find that jacket for a couple hundred bucks on eBay he would happily buy it and brag about it, as we probably all would.

It seems to me that YOU believe that people who buy RMC and the like are elitist and rank other people by the clothes they wear and are simply projecting these believes on someone like @dudewuttheheck. All he, and I, have said is that different people like different jackets for different reasons, and that it's ridiculous to say one person's preference is reasonable and another's isn't.

 

[Benj]

The reason Japanese jackets sell for the prices they do has nothing to do with quality of material or superior construction. It is based on social engineering. They have mastered their brand in high gloss. Not to say they aren't incredibly well made, they in fact are but they are selling an image as much as a jacket for sure. Goosenecked panhead and huge chain wallet...says it all.

I'm a little confused on how you can say this. Do you know the length of time it takes to prepare Shinki leather vs. horween leather? Or how long an RMC jacket takes to make vs. an aero jacket? Or the kinds of machines, and cost to maintain them, that make each jacket? Or the pay rate for the sewers at Aero or RMC? Or a million other things that go into making a jacket...

 

[ton312]

I'm a little confused on how you can say this. Do you know the length of time it takes to prepare Shinki leather vs. horween leather? Or how long an RMC jacket takes to make vs. an aero jacket? Or the kinds of machines, and cost to maintain them, that make each jacket? Or the pay rate for the sewers at Aero or RMC? Or a million other things that go into making a jacket...

No, but having handled several shinki jackets...don't need to.
The jackets (I'm sure) are made in a matter of days, if they claim otherwise it's a lie, there is no level of customization whatsoever. By definition, they should be able to punch one out in a day or two. Same numbers, same leather, same leather. What's the hold up then?

 

[dudewuttheheck]

No, but having handled several shinki jackets...don't need to.
The jackets (I'm sure) are made in a matter of days, if they claim otherwise it's a lie, there is no level of customization whatsoever. By definition, they should be able to punch one out in a day or two. Same numbers, same leather, same leather. What's the hold up then?

I am not aware of how long it takes to make McCoy's jackets. I do remember Dave Himel telling me exactly how many individual man hours it took to make my Grizzly. It was over 30 man hours and I am pretty certain that it was 36. That said, I really doubt that my McCoy's jacket took that long. I'm sure that it can be banged out in a day or two, similar to an Aero. That's not where I think the price is coming from personally.

@Benj was referring to more than just the man hours to make the jackets. The machines used are factors and more importantly, the leather used is a factor of time. Chromexcel takes 28 working days to make according to Horween themselves. Horween also proudly states that their cordovan takes 6 months to make. Shinki horsehide takes at least 9 months to make and often takes an entire year from start to finish. Even if you do not like Shinki, that time is certainly not inexpensive and there is no denying that.

@Blackadder, thank you very much for the link! I admit that ownership of these companies confuses me!

@Edward, @Benj, yeah if I'm honest, I'm seriously peeved that this company doesn't make my size since it's an actual issue size. It kind of makes a mockery of their authenticity pap because clearly cost issues are more important to them.

@Benj, with all due respect, 40 is not a large size, is it? Isn't it a kind of 'medium'? If not, I must be bigger than my mental image of myself!

@dudewhatheheck, ok, so now I'm confused. A couple of pages back you say that RMC customers are people who appreciate quality and heritage (and all that stuff), and you don't think they deserve slamming over their prices, but...
Now you're saying that your one RMC jacket was a second hand deal for a couple of hundred bucks? Are you saying that you bought it from a guy who really is an RMC customer, and that you are an eBay customer or something?

Now I'm thinking that you have an image of the kind of person who buys a new RMC, and you're trying to buy into that image.

I never called you a 'cocky kid'. I think you can be kind of arrogant when you talk about how you have a superior appreciation of clothes, with the implication that the rest of us don't. You're age hasn't got anything to do with it, and I never suggested it did.

As for the whole 'japanese quality' myth, for every example of Japanese OCD attention to detail you can give me, I can show you an example of negligent and criminal behavior;
How about Takata airbags?
Sharp accounting scandal?
Olympus accounting scandal?
Kobe steel data falsification for aircraft and reactor components?
Mitsubishi emissions cheating?
Nissan using substandard metals?
Tepco falsifying critical component inspections on reactors?
Food mislabeling scandals?
Minamata sickness?

I could go on all day about 'japanese quality'. It's just the same as anywhere else; there are good individuals and good companies, but there are also terrible ones. There is no innate Japanese quality that leads to improved production.

You really need to stop putting ridiculous and insulting words in my mouth right now. What in the heck are you even talking about? Are we having the same conversation here? It really does not feel like it. When did I ever mention ebay? Again, I said SOME RMC customers are a certain type of person not all of them. What the heck is "some guy who really is an RMC customer" supposed to mean?! What is a "real" RMC customer? I have absolutely no idea what you are on about.

To clarify one final time for you: The people that I KNOW AND HAVE SPOKEN TO ABOUT RMC WHO ALSO OWN RMC are all people who are very much into raw denim, boots, reproduction work wear, etc. I fit into this category. This type of person sees an RMC jacket as only part of their wardrobe that includes very high quality boots or sneakers, raw denim jeans, etc, etc. This is what I was referring to when I referred to people who are into a certain kind of high quality clothing. My point is that RMC is popular with people like us while Aero is less popular. That's it. That doesn't mean we know more about leather jackets than you or others on this forum. It does not mean we have 'superior' taste. It does not mean we are better than anyone else. I was only trying to explain that there is a type of person that generally prefers RMC, Freewheelers, and Himel Bros. to Aero and that type of person is not generally found on this forum. They are generally found on places like denimbro. Ben, Superfluous, and I happen to be exceptions to this as we are also members on this forum, though I do believe some denimbro members have posted here in the past at one point. Ishmael used to be here for example.

I am sure that there are many other types of RMC customers. I am not arguing this at all. However, I have absolutely no idea who these people are or what is in their heads or what clothes are on their body.

This whole 'RMC' image you are talking about is confusing me because the entire point that I am trying to make is that I only see my RMC jacket as a small part of my total wardrobe. I see no 'image' to buy into that is specific to RMC. Sure, I like to dress and look a certain way, but this is not exclusive to brands. Sure, it's a costume to a large degree, but I am fully aware of this and could not care less. As I said before, most people don't know what brands I am wearing and I wear them for myself, not some 'image' that I am not even aware of. In fact, RMC's reputation has gone downhill recently even in the other communities I interact with, so there is no RMC 'image' to buy into right now. I have that jacket because I love it and it makes me happy which is why I think we all buy our jackets.

As for me buying it off ebay, what in the world made you think that? Why not ask me what I am referring to when I say something rather than make grossly incorrect and frankly, truly insulting insinuations about me. Am I posting insinuations about you and your character during this discussion? I don't think so and if I have, I apologize. Either way, as Ben pointed out, I did not buy my RMC jacket off of ebay. I purchased it brand new from a Japanese website. The point I was making was that I did not pay the extremely high prices that we see from western retailers.

Truthfully, I agree that RMC is overpriced in the western market, but certainly not to the degree that so many others here think they are. My point was that I would not and did not pay western retail prices for my RMC jacket and instead paid the Japanese domestic price which brought it much closer to the price of an Aero and Good Wear. It cost me $100 more than a Good Wear jacket costs which makes it far closer to the price of a Vicenza Aero jacket as well. Let me reiterate so you do not put words in my mouth again: I believe that RMC does in fact cost quite a lot when their items are purchased from western retail stores. I would likely not pay those prices at this point either. However, I also think Aero is even more overpriced for what you get right now, especially given the quality of Vanson jackets. This is my opinion. My opinion does not make me superior to everyone else. Do I believe that my wardrobe and my jackets are superior to most other peoples? Of course I do! Who wouldn't? Any of us who have purchased a few jackets should damn well prefer what we own to what other people own. If not, then we clearly are not happy with our purchases and that would be a shame.

I'm not even going to address the Japanese quality issue at this point.

Might I suggest one more time that you stop trying to guess what type of person I am and what I am thinking and instead ask me to explain? It is extremely insulting and don't tell me otherwise. You know exactly what you are saying when you try to pigeon hole me into a negative stereotype as you have done more than once.

 

[bn1966]

Hot thread this it's helping to keep my Weekend interesting (In-Laws have been over).

I visited the London Covent branch of RMC recently, nearly tried on a special edition 60's styled MA-1 in XL that looked like it might fit but with a price well North of £1000 I abstained. There were XL's about and 46's in some jackets but again didn't try any out.

Went over to the ELC 'Pop up' in Shoreditch & did try a Buzz early MA-1 type in XXL for North of £400 I think, slightly snug, an XXXL would probably have seen me parting with some £££.

 

[red devil]

Hot thread this it's helping to keep my Weekend interesting (In-Laws have been over).

I visited the London Covent branch of RMC recently, nearly tried on a special edition 60's styled MA-1 in XL that looked like it might fit but with a price well North of £1000 I abstained. There were XL's about and 46's in some jackets but again didn't try any out.

Went over to the ELC 'Pop up' in Shoreditch & did try a Buzz early MA-1 type in XXL for North of £400 I think, slightly snug, an XXXL would probably have seen me parting with some £££.

The London prices are certainly ridiculous.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

The London prices are certainly ridiculous.

Oh, absolutely! I would not pay the prices that they charge for RMC in London unless I was exceedingly rich.
It's like paying for White's in Japan. It's ridiculous how much they cost there.

 

[Big J]

@dudewhattheheck, seriously, are you for real?

"I would not pay London prices", you don't pay US prices!

You've already admitted that you got your RMC jacket for a couple of hundred bucks, so please stop trying to defend their price new.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

@dudewhattheheck, seriously, are you for real?

"I would not pay London prices", you don't pay US prices!

You've already admitted that you got your RMC jacket for a couple of hundred bucks, so please stop trying to defend their price new.

I did no such thing. I admitted that I paid $100 more than a Good Wear.

You are literally lying/misrepresenting what I say. This is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Big J]

@dudewhatheheck, whatever you paid for it, you've admitted that you didn't pay the list price, so I don't understand why you're getting upset about people criticizing the list price, and trying to defend the list price.
If you went out and bought a new RMC jacket at the list price, then yeah, I might take you seriously when you say they aren't overpriced. But right now, I don't.