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Rank and Patches on Military Jackets - Might I Offend a Veteran?

MisterCairo

I'll Lock Up
Messages
7,005
Location
Gads Hill, Ontario
I've reviewed most of the prior comments with interest. Re-enactors do no harm wearing authentic uniforms complete with rank. If the issue is "should you wear rank, unit or other military insignia, ribbons, medals, etc., as part of your daily fashion wear", my response is an unequivocal NO.

In Canada, the Criminal Code at section 419 makes it an offence to wear certain aspects of a "uniform of the Canadian Forces" when not entitled to do so. Other legislation, such as the National Defence Act, and regulations made under these acts provide certain express limitations - use in a theatrical, tv or film production, for example.

Even former serving members are restricted in what they may do with uniforms after their service is done. Obviously, you can't continue to wear your uniform as if you were still on duty, and it is irrelevant that you "earned" your rank - as a civilian, you can't pass yourself off as a serving member.

One can wear mess kit as formal wear, as even though it has rank insignia, you paid for the kit and, while technicallly "uniform", its use in social settings is permitted.

Obviously you can wear ribbons and medals you earned - that is expressly authorized. NO ONE ELSE is allowed under Canadian law to wear ribbons or medals not earned by them. Not to "honour" grandad or Uncle Joe, not for any reason.

The Criminal Code doesn't prohibit the wearing of rank patches per se, but if worn in conjunction with any uniform that even looks like current pattern, it would be an offence.

Wearing historic uniforms would probably not be considered a criminal offence, and so this is where issues of taste, respect and protocol would come in.

As for those of us born after the second world war, obviously no one would think you actually served. But why in heaven's name would anyone want to walk around in battle dress, with rank and unit insignia, as day to day wear? Spare me any notions of honour, you're a prat, pure and simple.

I say all of this as a serving air force major, leaving the Regulars in exactly 18 days, with no intention of wearing anything further (unless I am able to join the Reserves) except my ribbons and medals on appropriate occasions, and my mess kit, again, on appropriate occasions.

Civilians, re-enactors and wannabes - fill your boots as your consciences dictate.
 
Messages
15,563
Location
East Central Indiana
...thats OK. I'll still wear my WW2 repro..or original A2 with historical patches..nametag..and rank..(as I always have)for reasons most likely best known to me. Someone doesn't like the audacity..then call the FBI..and I'm sure we can sensibly legally work it out. Or..better yet just frown in disgust and shake an accusing finger of disapproval.
Sorry..but Jeesh...
HD
 
Messages
11,579
Location
Covina, Califonia 91722
This stuff gets caught in the gray area of Intent versus Impression.

I think we all agree that an intent to defraud is bad, but the thing is if the viewee gets the wrong impression inspite of ones "non-intent" what can you do?
 
Messages
15,563
Location
East Central Indiana
John in Covina said:
This stuff gets caught in the gray area of Intent versus Impression.

I think we all agree that an intent to defraud is bad, but the thing is if the viewee gets the wrong impression inspite of ones "non-intent" what can you do?

Well..I suppose if a viewee of importance(WW2 Vet?)approaches a wearer with concerns...and the wearer then cares to explain his intent..that is what one can do. If still disagreeable...then the wearer can decide whether to take off the jacket out of respect for the WW2 Vet..and throw it over his arm until out of the present situation...or not.
 

Carlisle Blues

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,154
Location
Beautiful Horse Country
HoosierDaddy said:
Well..I suppose if a viewee of importance(WW2 Vet?)approaches a wearer with concerns...and the wearer then cares to explain his intent..that is what one can do. If still disagreeable...then the wearer can decide whether to take off the jacket out of respect for the WW2 Vet..and throw it over his arm until out of the present situation...or not.

However mutual respect is not mutually exclusive.....:eusa_doh:
 

Atticus Finch

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,718
Location
Coastal North Carolina, USA
These days I don’t wear rank insignia on my jackets. For a short while I wore my father’s leather name tag (complete with Sr. Pilot’s wings and his name and rank) on an old L-2B. But folks would see the jacket and want to talk to me about my time in the service. Usually they were vets who recognized the type of jacket I was wearing and assumed it had been issued to me...which, of course, it wasn’t.

I never had a single person act offended, or suggest that I not wear my jacket. On the contrary, people always seem touched that I would wear Dad’s nametag. Still, I always felt a bit uncomfortable telling people that I was never a military pilot and that the tag was actually my father’s. So…I still wear the jacket, but now it has an empty plastic tag holder on the front.

Frankly, I can't say that I have much of an opinion as to whether civilians should wear military tags, patches or rank on their military gear. But I can say this: I've seen people, who have never stepped foot in a major league park, wearing Atlanta Braves caps and jerseys. I've seen high school dropouts wearing Duke University T-shirts. I even once saw a Quick Pick clerk wearing a shirt that proclaimed her a “Porn Star in Training”. I really don’t think that she was, but if that was her fantasy, it was fine by me. The point is, life would be awfully boring if we weren’t permitted at least a bit of "Walter Mittyism" from time to time. If a person wants to wear an old military jacket, complete with rank and unit patches…just because he or she likes to wear such things...what’s the harm? After all, it could be a lot worse...he could be wearing a Duke shirt.

AF
 

Spitfire

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,078
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark.
MisterCairo said:
As for those of us born after the second world war, obviously no one would think you actually served. But why in heaven's name would anyone want to walk around in battle dress, with rank and unit insignia, as day to day wear? Spare me any notions of honour, you're a prat, pure and simple.


L1010097-3.jpg

One danish PRAT enjoying a nice, warm jacket in the snow.
 

aswatland

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,338
Location
Kent, England
MisterCairo said:
Wow, it's not enough to wear someone else's rank and unit, you wear their NAME too?

Jeesh.....

I respectfully disagree with this statement. I have many original A2s in my collection with name strips and rank insignia on them. I wear them all from time to time. Removing them is out of the question as they are part of each jacket and give them historical provenance.
 

cco23i

A-List Customer
Messages
472
Location
Phoenix
Well as for my 2 cents woth. I have worn my AAF ground crew stuff ALL OVER for shows and displays and as a 26 year Air Force active duty member and portray in a WW2 ground crewman and which is also what I actually do I and my compadres have had NO PROBLEMS at ALL. All the pilots and ground crew from WW2 have greatly enjoyed seeing someone honor the ground crews for their service in keeping the airplanes flying. In my 27 years of reenacting / living hhistory I noticed the only veteran that gave anyone crap was one who never left the states and was extremely biased against the Germans in WW2. He had served as a medic at a training base on the east coast. All the veterans who served overseas in combat or at an airbase really gave no one any problems. One fellow who was giving a friend of mine crap I asked info on his service and come to find out he never served due to medical problems, he was just "faking" his service and causing problems. I think if you are wearing your uniform for an event to honor the vets there is no problem.

Scott
 
Messages
15,563
Location
East Central Indiana
As there are varying opinions in this thread from those who have served..and those who haven't...opinions on this can be as varied with some of those who have served in historical theaters of battle as well. However..many WW2 and Korean Vets have expressed their satisfaction with those of another generation acknowledging and honoring those bomber and fighter squadrons that otherwise might fade into history. Even to the point of autographing replica patched jackets and,in some cases,setup to honor them personally. Although many of these Vets rarely care to,then,discuss the horrors of war,often they are delighted to find that some of us have obtained some knowledge of what these patches and personalities meant during those perilous times. Time permitting...some are willing to add personal experiences to expand on what truely went on during their service.
Then..just as now...there are the hardcore. They lived it...therefore anything else is fraudulent wannabe unrighteous behavior. So.."might I offend a veteran"? Sure!...but there are also those who do feel quite honored as well. It's a fact of life that you can never please everyone. However...an ensignia..name...certain item on display can spark interest about it's history..and the story behind it......
HD
 

aswatland

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,338
Location
Kent, England
HoosierDaddy said:
As there are varying opinions in this thread from those who have served..and those who haven't...opinions on this can be as varied with some of those who have served in historical theaters of battle as well. However..many WW2 and Korean Vets have expressed their satisfaction with those of another generation acknowledging and honoring those bomber and fighter squadrons that otherwise might fade into history. Even to the point of autographing replica patched jackets and,in some cases,setup to honor them personally. Although many of these Vets rarely care to,then,discuss the horrors of war,often they are delighted to find that some of us have obtained some knowledge of what these patches and personalities meant during those perilous times. Time permitting...some are willing to add personal experiences to expand on what truely went on during their service.
Then..just as now...there are the hardcore. They lived it...therefore anything else is fraudulent wannabe unrighteous behavior. So.."might I offend a veteran"? Sure!...but there are also those who do feel quite honored as well. It's a fact of life that you can never please everyone. However...an ensignia..name...certain item on display can spark interest about it's history..and the story behind it......
HD


This is spot on HD and should be the final word on the subject in this thread, but I suspect it will not be.
 

MPicciotto

Practically Family
Messages
771
Location
Eastern Shore, MD
I just want to say that this has been a most civil conversation on a topic that could have turned ugly. :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap I applaud all of you.

Matt
 

p51

One Too Many
Messages
1,118
Location
Well behind the front lines!
MisterCairo said:
Wow, it's not enough to wear someone else's rank and unit, you wear their NAME too?
Jeesh.....
If I ever build up a fifth A-2, what I'll likely do is exactly that, for a vet I befriended in the 90s and sadly passed soon afterward. He gave me tons of stuff he'd saved, even "adopted" me as his personal storyteller. I passedalong the story of him being shot down in 1944 into a book someone was writing. I can tell for certain that if I ever put together a A-2 with his name on it, he'd have been darned happy to know that!
 

C-dot

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,908
Location
Toronto, Canada
I read everything MisterCairo said, and as a fellow Canadian and soon-to-be military wife, WOW. I had no idea about that. I've seen non-military folk wearing the jackets of veteran family members - I knew that was okay, since its not current-issue. Some guys wear jackets in the pre-pixelated camouflage that are otherwise dangerously similar, name patches and all. My intended cannot wear his GI's with civilian clothing, nor can he wear his Balmoral while relaxing... But I had no idea it was also so strict for civilians. Interesting.

I was going to suggest wearing the 2 chevrons of a Corporal, because if Billy the Goat can be an honorary Corporal (http://www.worldculturepictorial.com/blog/content/billy-goat-lance-corporal-william-windsor-retires-royal-welsh-regiment-mascot-with-full-mili), then why not?

Perhaps the US laws are more lenient than the British Commonwealth? Has anyone researched this?
 

MPicciotto

Practically Family
Messages
771
Location
Eastern Shore, MD
One of my reenactor buddies was held up at the gate at Andrews Air Force Base by a guard who about flipped on him for "Impersonating an Officer". As my friend told me it was quite sharp on the guards part to pick out the Oak Leafs, But the Pinks & Greens should have been a give away that something wasn't adding up. The matter was rapidly cleared up and he was able to enter the show (Joint Forces Open House aka Air Show) and get with his A/C a B-25 I think it was.

Matt
 

cco23i

A-List Customer
Messages
472
Location
Phoenix
The sad thing Matt is me being active duty Air Force many times I have been at a display and the fellows I know and many other active duty Air Force types have no clue about their Army roots. It's pretty sad especially as the Marines, Navy and now the Army are really into their history and the Air Force seems to not really care.

Scott
 

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