Please Explain High End Selvedge Jeans to Me

[Ross817]

While I am under no circumstances an expert on the subject, I do wear a pair of Momotaro 705's on the Daily. Now "body washing out" to me signifies the loss of starch that is present in the jeans when new. I come from the school of thought that you get a pair of raw selvedge, weather sanforized or un-sanforized, you put them on and wear and wear and wear. Now weather or not they are 15 oz or 25 oz denim they will have a ton of starch in them and, to me, that is what makes up the initial "body". Once the starch has been removed, by continuous wear or a soak, they do seem to have less rigidity. And to me this would translate to less "body".

anyway just my .02

I agree also with what Bretron states above about entry level brands like APC, BUT I do have a pair of Unbranded (80 dollars entry's) on the way Id be happy to review when I get them in comparison to my 300 Dollar + Momotaro's.

-Ross

 

[rocketeer]

Some years back I had some Levi 501s. Shrink to fit, made in USA, double XX I think, my memory has faded like the jeans. I had these for years, when new, I just bought a 33 waist, 32 leg and then turned them inside out, threw them in the bath and left overnight to bleed out. Reckon they lasted me about 5 years till the crotch became threadbare and I got to fat for them and had to upgrade the waist size. By then you could no longer get shrink to fit, made in USA 501s here easily even if they still made them.
Miss those old jeans

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, I understand the notion of body and the starch that may or may not be present in jeans (I can't imagine why there would be!) when new. It's the suggestion above that once this "body" has washed out that there is "absolutely no difference" between a 14 and 23 Oz denim that surprises me. I guess the question is, is the person who said "absolutely no difference" only talking about appearance, or about the weight of denim also?

Now weather or not they are 15 oz or 25 oz denim they will have a ton of starch in them and, to me, that is what makes up the initial "body". Once the starch has been removed, by continuous wear or a soak, they do seem to have less rigidity. And to me this would translate to less "body".

anyway just my .02

 

[ButteMT61]

They may be as soft, but come on, 25oz denim does not become 14oz after xx washings.
That said as I'm not entering this fray, I got two pairs of "Lucky" green selvedge jeans that I love. Not heavy, but really comfortable and good looking. I don't think they make them any longer though. Also have some 501 and 3Sixteen. All good, but not heavy like Iron Heart or Samurai, etc.
RRL makes some nice looking pairs - again, not heavy, but good looking right off. Heavy stuff is cool, but if you're not used to it you could be shocked. See if you can see it in person first...

 

[Ross817]

Thats a good question. I would say this......If i started with a yard of 15oz denim and a yard of 25oz denim and washed them both 20 times, I would expect them to not necessarily weigh what they did at the start, but equal to each other??????? I wouldnt expect that. But hell Im a telecom guy not a textile expert.

But at the end of the day. I like my 6 month old daily wear Momotaro's, washed once. I would encourage anyone to try a pair if the time is available to you.

-Ross

 

[Edward]

On some of the guitar sites I inhabit, a question like "Can I buy a Gibson for 99 dollars" would now be attracting accusations of Trolling. Ah well. Keep the "interested" questions coming.

I think we're a bit more understanding here. After all, it's harder to spot these things with denim. The leather jacket comparison is a good one, though.

(Where we are like the guitar boards at times is there are plenty of people ready to sneer at anything cheap as automatically rubbish, of course. ).

Guys, I'm not saying there's no difference.
I just want to know what the differences are.
I bought an Aero FQHH jacket instead of mall garbage so I do appreciate quality and the greater cost associated with it.
How much should I expect to pay for entry level good quality selvedge jeans?
Lenny

That depends on who you ask.... Me, I've got absolutely no reason to spend more than I did on my Freddies of Pinewood - GBP79.00 (actually nearer half that on both pairs as I bought in a sale) - about USD120 at current prices. A fair chunk more than I used to spend on jeans, but definitely worth it for the very appreciable upgrade in quality (not to mention that the higher-waisted, wider-legged cuts I favour simply aren't available on the High Street). I do like the LVC stuff a lot, but I can't get past the feeling that they are getting the arm in off the back of the big brand rather than the jeans. A lot of folks here favour the Iron Hearts and similar. For me, that's just a crazy amount more than I am willing to spend on a pair of jeans, bearing in mind I could have at least two pairs of dress trousers for that, made to measure, but it's all subjective. Some of the denim crowd will buy a pair of jeans and live in them, rarely wear anything else outside of weddings and funerals, and only have one pair at a time. They might also want a little extra protection on a bike, without the Power Ranger look... That's where, I imagine, the really high end stuff comes into its own. Jeans just aren't that important to me. All the other stuff about washing / not washing, how long to go between washes, etc strikes me as two parts superstition to one part subjective opinion - YMMV, of course.

 

[schitzo]

Heavy stuff is cool, but if you're not used to it you could be shocked. See if you can see it in person first...

the trouble with this is that after two days wear them jeans will be totally different to the unworn state. Unlike 4oz steerhide heavyweight denim breaks in real quick, and effortlessly. So looking at them unworn won't really be that helpful. I say take a punt and it's odds on you'll be happy you did

 

[pipvh]

Currently wearing a pair of Edwin 47s in 13.5oz Japanese denim - just rinsed them after about 6 months wear. Absolutely beautiful. Picked them up for under £70 on ebay. The heaviest jeans I've owned were Sugar Cane Union Stars which were, I think, 15oz or thereabouts. I'd love to try some super-heavy Iron Hearts soon. I'm not entirely sure if the weight of the denim is more important than the quality but there's definitely something addictive about Japanese-woven denim.

 

[ButteMT61]

the trouble with this is that after two days wear them jeans will be totally different to the unworn state. Unlike 4oz steerhide heavyweight denim breaks in real quick, and effortlessly. So looking at them unworn won't really be that helpful. I say take a punt and it's odds on you'll be happy you did

No doubt. I'm just saying - someone who hasn't even held them might faint at the sight. I love heavy denim. I also have lightweight off-white and tan selvedge denim for summer, etc. Both have their place...

 

[majormajor]

They may be as soft, but come on, 25oz denim does not become 14oz after xx washings.
That said as I'm not entering this fray, I got two pairs of "Lucky" green selvedge jeans that I love. Not heavy, but really comfortable and good looking. I don't think they make them any longer though. Also have some 501 and 3Sixteen. All good, but not heavy like Iron Heart or Samurai, etc.
RRL makes some nice looking pairs - again, not heavy, but good looking right off. Heavy stuff is cool, but if you're not used to it you could be shocked. See if you can see it in person first...

OK, Scott, don't believe it (and I think you just entered the fray)...

Think about it. The likes of Levi/Wrangler/Lee/et al fought like cat & dog for supremacy of the denim workwear market for 100 years, and NEVER ever considered making 23oz denim. They could have. But they didn't.

Then, a few years ago, the Japanese, and the kids not old enough to have bought the stuff first time round, got in on the deal, and suddenly, there's a "better" denim......

If you subscribe to the bizarre "don't wash 'em" mantra (surely only supported by blokes without a wife/girlfriend - or friends), then yes, they look cool - and stink ( I was at a gig the other night, trying to see the band from behind a fat bloke - the smell from his unwashed jeans sort of crept up on me, but once I got it, it was evil. But I bet he couldn't smell it..:eeek:.).

But wash 'em and they WILL look like regular jeans!

Living in LA doesn't change reality (although the last time I hung out in Orange County (at the Pepperland Record Store) you could have fooled me....)

BTW, I still think this is a Troll thread, designed to elicit exactly this argument

 

[bretron]

It's all about the fade and patina of sweat and dust. Wash no more than every 9mos. If they stink, air em out. Yes I'm married, yes my wife thinks I'm a little crazy!

 

[majormajor]

It's all about the fade and patina of sweat and dust. Wash no more than every 9mos. If they stink, air em out. Yes I'm married, yes my wife thinks I'm a little crazy!

She must love you VERY much:eeek:

 

[Boyo]

doesn't the weight just reflect what a square yard of fabric weighs, either wool, cotton denim etc?? so heavier is heavier

 

[majormajor]

doesn't the weight just reflect what a square yard of fabric weighs, either wool, cotton denim etc?? so heavier is heavier

Yes, but the thicker, looser, thread becomes very soft after a few washes - after that, the difference between it and "regular" denim become negligible.

23oz denim is like the fancy tops on Grolsch bottles - it is MARKETING - pure & simple...

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Not being an afficianado, I must ask: extra "body"? The weight differences being noted above are not due to more cotton per square metre, but down to some kind of filler? This would disturb me inordinately, suggesting that the heavy weight was no more than a gimmick, and that if you want to maintain the weight you need to wear a pair of jeans that stinks of ass? [EDIT: yes, or dry cleaned] (if it's not washed, this is what happens - hang around enough rockabilly types in their unwashed jeans and see what I mean).

If the extra weight/square metre is due to more cotton per square metre, how on earth does it "wash out"? if it's not, why don't they just weave the stuff in a heavier weight?

Same thing went through my mind. Starch? Wtf? After a few more answers it appears as it just gets softer but not "lighter". So it doesn't get the "same".


I'm goin to buy Freddies next. Cut matters a little more to me than fabric... for jeans.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That's why I like the 1921 201s and earlier LVC jeans. Really fantastic anti-fit cuts.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Wow this denim stuff certainly brings out contradictory information and heightened emotions. I was vaguely interested in selvedge until I realized I could get $25 old school Wranglers over the internet that would last 5 years plus, so why bother? I know it's personal taste, but the other issue is I rarely see selvedge jeans that I like the look of.

I guess quality is lost on me for the most part and my wallet says thank you. I liked the Aero jacket I had, but I wear my Schott more often because I prefer it - it isn't better (whatever that means) - I just like it more. The only reason I'd have for Selvedge is if they wear much longer and harder. But there's so much malarkey written about denim that until there's an unwavering body of knowledge and advice you can rely on I'm out.

 

[majormajor]

I'm goin to buy Freddies next. Cut matters a little more to me than fabric... for jeans.

Yup - I buy Freddies. No silly flim-flam. Good selfedge jeans for £70. What's not to like?

" So it doesn't get the "same".

Yes, it f***ing does! Unfortunately, I can't arrange for a small biplane tugging a banner across the sky, but believe me - after a few months regular washing, 23oz jeans are JUST like regular jeans.

WTF???

BUY SOME

WEAR 'EM

WASH 'EM

In 6 months, you'll agree with me:eeek:

 

[Sir Jacket]

I have only one pair of selvedge: the Ironheart/Aero collaborations that Aero sold off at half-price after things went bad.

Excellent, solid things that feel completely different from other stiffies such as APCs (which nonetheless last well and are apparently favoured secondhand by painters, dockers and the like).

And did I mention the cuffs? They cuff so well.

SJ

 

[majormajor]

And did I mention the cuffs? They cuff so well.

SJ

You lost me, SJ.

So which pair of jeans did you buy that DIDN'T cuff well??

So they, like, sprung back or something??.......Wierd......