Pistol Packin' Mama A2

[Baron Kurtz]

I have better pics but forgot to bring them. I'll be uploading better pics of this jacket when i get them onto my work computer. As always, forgive the iMac pictures.

It does have a patch, too.

This was a very popular Vargas Esquire centrefold.

There were many planes called Pistol Packin Mama, with various changes on the artwork. http://www.usaaf-noseart.co.uk/theme-pistolpackin.htm

I found this picture using the same centrefold but no wording or bombs or red circle.

bk

 

[Speedbird]

Very nice - it looks good on you Baron! :eusa_clap

Original or nice repro?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

It's wayyyy too big for me. The shots above are very carefully staged. lol Look how stupidly long it is in the front shot.

Certainly not an issued example. But potentially quite old. The leather is not of the type i would expect of a 1940s jacket. The art shows wear that appears to be not "manufactured" (rocks in the tumble dryer etc.). The liner also shows wear that appears to be not "manufactured" and like the wear i've seen on similar linings of the A2 spec type.

I honestly don't know, therefore. The pics i took highlight the features and hopefully people who know more about A2s can give their educated guesses. The collar is of the "stand" type, for example.

bk

 

[BellyTank]

Hi Baron-
we can't see the small details from here.
Zip? Snaps? brands, markings on?

Maybe not an issue A-2(?) but let's have your vintage educated guess from the zip, if it's an orig.

You must have studied orig. A-2s... just a little.

The '80s and '90s were a big time for A-2 repros- Cooper, W&G, etc and lots
of "cheaper"* ones. *Cheaper and worse.


B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

re: studying A2s not really. I don't like the damn things, aesthetically very unpleasing to me.

Zipper is a replaced YKK. The snaps are, IIRC, Stocko. Leather is very thin. Thin enough that i would normally have discounted it being vintage; but then i came across some very very thin 1930s leather jackets. It's not a very good reproduction by today's standards. There is no collar hook, there are no grommets under the arms, one of the collar snaps is badly misplaced and it seems to bear a mish-mash of features generally attributed to different makers.

More pics to come, as i said. Be patient.

bk

 

[Speedbird]

Pistol packin' mama

I have a reproduced copy of an original photograph (in a couple of sources) of three members of a B-17 Pistol Packin' Mama crew wearing their painted A-2's. My pic shows the Vargas girl replaced with a B-17 but as you identify, there were more than one and loads of interpretations! At least this paint is an authentic homage rather than a complete whimsy.

As for the jacket, I have a hunch... but better to be thought a fool rather than open my mouth and remove all doubt!

 

[jon z]

Hi Baron-
we can't see the small details from here.
Zip? Snaps? brands, markings on?

Very inconsistent & contradictory of yourself BT considering your comments in the Bruce Willis jacket thread.

 

[BellyTank]

Very inconsistent & contradictory of yourself BT considering your comments in the Bruce Willis jacket thread.

Totally different scenario and there's some culture being talked around that you're not privy to.

Thanks for noticing and for your confidence in these trying times.

I know for sure it's NOT a WW2 vintage A-2 jacket.

No delusions.


B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Please, kids, leave your Willis and Indy movie wardrobe arguments in the threads they belong.

Toys firmly tossed from pram …

Sadly i have to work today so will remember my USB drive with the new images.

bk

 

[BellyTank]

Sorry, Dad...


B
T

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Backtalk now!

No supper for you …

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I should stop referring to the zip as a replacement. This is what i was told, but i'm unconvinced.

Better pics.

Front. Note there was something stuck at one point to the left shoulder.

Back.

Art

Pockets. Closed

Open: Ring type snaps throughout the jacket. Made by Stocko.

And the reinforcement for the snap, also showing the snap back.

Collar area

Back of collar

bk

 

[Speedbird]

Holy Moly it's a jacket for sure

I said I had hunch earlier before good pics arrived but didn't want to remove all doubt that an idiot is speaking..... it's time to remove all doubt!

I asked "original or nice repro" ... Baron says not sure, BT says for sure not WW2 vintage ... I kept my trap firmly closed .... it may not be WW2 but it may yet be an 'original' of a sort.

So today Baron has uploaded some better pics and it does seem that the jacket has some real quality but is not obviously attributable to any one maker or era.

But it does have some clues.

The chest patch insignia is 23rd Fighter Group (note Group not Squadron) - it is unmistakeably referencing the 1st AVG, "Flying Tigers" and it's official descendants.

The Pistol Packin Mama theme is so widespread it could be found anywhere on anything; but there was a known P-47 Thunderbolt in the Pacific theatre with the PPM noseart. It is interesting that the jacket art uses bombs to mark missions - normally a bombing mission indicator. The Flying Tigers/23rd FG flew P-40's, later modified to carry 1000lbs bombs to attack ground targets. Later they flew P-51's. But no kill tallies for shooting down enemy aircraft? Anyway, I think this is a red herring. How likely is the jacket to be from the 40's anyway?

I think this jacket was manaufactured between 1987 - 1992. I think it might be a contract jacket, sample or production, made for when the new contract to supply the USAF was issued in 1987. I reckon it was an Airforce issue jacket. There is an outside chance that it might be an English made 'replica' - I keep thinking I recognise the way it hangs on Baron in the first picture as something I know from when I worked for CCC in Southampton in 1991.

I think it's artwork commemorates, pays tribute to or acknowledges one of three possibilities:

1. In 1991 an 'American Hero' film was released called ‘Pistol Packin’ Mama: The Missions of a B-17′ is it linked to this documentary somehow? The 23rd FG patch makes that odd and unlikely. Why not put on a 303rd BG or 390th BG patch, who flew out of Framlingham and Molesworth and had known PPM B-17's.

2. In 1992 just before the AVG 50th Reunion the AVG was officially recognised as part of the US military in WW2 (officially they were civilian contractors) and the unit was given a Presidential Citation. This could be a reunion 'special'. If so, how did it end up in the UK? Why is it not more overtly AVG/Flying Tigers?

3. In 1990/1 23rd FG deployed to the Gulf as part of Desert Shield/Desert Storm with it's A-10 Thunderbolts, complete with shark noses in tribute to the Flying Tigers' shark mouthed P-40's and nose art went through an upsurge of popularity in both British and American camps. I think it is a privately purchased or issued A-2 then painted by groundcrew/aircrew (maybe sent away for professional painting) and subsequenly the jacket came back to the UK from the Gulf.

Possibility 3 is the most likely history of Baron's jacket in my opinion. It may or may not be an original, it may or may not be a good repro, it may or may not be accurate but I think it owes it's identity to the 1991 Gulf War one way or another.

And now I await an absolute flaming by the experts!!!

 

[aswatland]

Nice jacket, but obviously a repro made in the last 25 years or so. Pockets are a little similar to Avirex, but its appears to be from a different repro maker.

 

[BellyTank]

Aswatland, would you care to comment on the jacket being discussed in this thread-
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?p=973906#post973906

The jacket Bruce Willis is wearing, have a look.
Vintage, or not..?


B
T

 

[Phantomfixer]

Speed

I really liked your insight on The Cockpit USA and Avirex. I really enjoyed your theories on this jacket too. As we might never know the real origins of the jacket, any theory would be a good theory. I am going away from the Air Force current issue(1987-present) idea on this jacket for a few reasons. First the hide. It looks like horsehide or cowhide, really worn in hide too. The contract calls for seal brown goat, maybe a sample maybe not. Then the hardware. All the issue jackets that I have seen have black hardware. Then the liner, the color is off from a GI issue jacket. No looped coat hanger either.
I like the idea of a Gulf War bring back too. But most work that I have seen from the first gulf war was mostly airbrush stuff. Not all but most. Nose art did make a huge comeback in the late 80s and during the gulf war. Was it Gen McPeak AF chief of staff at that time who brought back the A-2 and matching B-3 gloves? I think that was him. He was real gung ho on the idea of AF history and squadron lineage. He encouaged nose art to a degree.

I think that it is a 1950s era jacket painted by an artist with knowledge of noseart and the 23 FG. But as you pointed out why bombs on a FG jacket....
Either way a heck of a jacket.

 

[Phantomfixer]

Actually

I was looking at the hide again to me it screams early 80's Willis and Gieger. But the liner does not appear correct for them.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

The squadron patch on the front is 14th AAF, is it not? The Flying Tigers logo that was designed by Disney studios after we were officially in the war and the AVG had been absorbed into the regular army air forces. Therefore inconsistent with European theater jackets which seemed to be adorned with the majority of contemporary pinup art. But anything is possible,....[huh]

 

[Speedbird]

PPM A-2

I really liked your insight on The Cockpit USA and Avirex. I really enjoyed your theories on this jacket too. As we might never know the real origins of the jacket, any theory would be a good theory. I am going away from the Air Force current issue(1987-present) idea on this jacket for a few reasons. First the hide. It looks like horsehide or cowhide, really worn in hide too. The contract calls for seal brown goat, maybe a sample maybe not. Then the hardware. All the issue jackets that I have seen have black hardware. Then the liner, the color is off from a GI issue jacket. No looped coat hanger either.
I like the idea of a Gulf War bring back too. But most work that I have seen from the first gulf war was mostly airbrush stuff. Not all but most. Nose art did make a huge comeback in the late 80s and during the gulf war. Was it Gen McPeak AF chief of staff at that time who brought back the A-2 and matching B-3 gloves? I think that was him. He was real gung ho on the idea of AF history and squadron lineage. He encouaged nose art to a degree.

I think that it is a 1950s era jacket painted by an artist with knowledge of noseart and the 23 FG. But as you pointed out why bombs on a FG jacket....
Either way a heck of a jacket.

Thanks Phantom. The truth is I don't really have enough knowledge of all the different makers and the various contracts and patterns of originals and issue jackets. I know about the ones I know about, if you see what I mean. Others here are far better educated in this matter. For me there is something that screams at me "I have known you" but I don't know what it is except for what might be called the inaccuracies - the things that are wrong if you like. It's got some age, but how much age? I really don't know but it kind of looks like (from the picture) that it has been modified or altered in its visuals. We can see that the left shoulder has had a patch or decal removed. I also think the insignia has been added, replacing an earlier one. I think there is some markings around the patch that look like scrapes from removing something that was there previously.

I probably am in the habit of romantising these things and inventing the back story when the really die hard collectors and experts settle probably wisely for for "I don't know, can't say". But I like to think of these things as a puzzle to be solved. And for me, one thing for sure is that someone somewhere went to some length to first of all make a stab at a decent jacket with all kinds of features found on originals but didn't quite pull it off - which makes me think it is certainly more than 20 years old. And then I think someone else went to a lot of trouble to gave this jacket a new identity and whoever did the paint was skilled. And also to lose all the labels and makers marks. Why would you remove all original labels? I have done it on a few things, but not a jacket like this.

23rd FG in the Gulf could be a complete red herring - but they were there, flying tank busters. That's why I say I think it owes its identity to the 91 Gulf War but that doesn't mean it started out life that way. Could it just be an attempt at an earlier 'flying tigers' jacket?

I did wonder if this is a veg tanned HH - but a very thin one; like the Cockpit Clothing A-2. I know for a fact there were some quality control issues with that jacket like misplaced snaps. But unless this is a sample, the CC had modern conveniences like extra pockets. I also know that Avirex UK had a few 'sample' jackets knocking around that were sold off cheap with all kinds of variations - they were true orphans (doh! they are probably the most collectable now).

As you say, we shall probably never know ... but there is something about this jacket that makes it interesting.

 

[Speedbird]

The squadron patch on the front is 14th AAF, is it not? The Flying Tigers logo that was designed by Disney studios after we were officially in the war and the AVG had been absorbed into the regular army air forces. Therefore inconsistent with European theater jackets which seemed to be adorned with the majority of contemporary pinup art. But anything is possible,....[huh]

Yes and no. The unit patch is 99% 23rd FG ... it's the addition of the lightning bolt which makes it something other than 14th AAF. I say that, but I am struggling to nail it down completely because it has subtle differences to all the photos I can find.

The 14th AAF did use the flying tiger motif; which as you say was designed by Disney. There was an evolution of the patch design as AVG became established and then developed into CATF and then 14th AAF. The official 14th AAF patch features the tiger leaping from left to right surmounted with the white star with a red circle at the centre. Early versions had the Tiger going the other way and a lot were locally made in theatre with slight variations as could be expected in handmade items. That's the cool thing about the Flying Tigers - in the early days everything was bespoke - those 'cats' had style! Anyway, apparently the Army switched the tiger around so it didn't seem like he was running away!