Personal Heat

[Johnnysan]

So, how many of you guys (who aren't cops or servicemen) have had the opportunity to fire at someone -- and done so?

If you haven't, would you like to be able to do so one day?.

Thankfully, I have never done so and have only been in situations where this was within the realm of possibility a time or two. With regard to part two of the question, I hope that I'm never forced to fire at someone as I ascribe to the sniper's code of "one shot, one kill." If I had to draw down on someone in defense of home, hearth, family or self, the end result would be tough to live with...regardless of the justification.

 

[John in Covina]

Serious Question

So, how many of you guys (who aren't cops or servicemen) have had the opportunity to fire at someone -- and done so?
If you haven't, would you like to be able to do so one day? I'm asking this seriously. .

*********
This is a very serious question and the problem is it seems to indicate the desire to "blow somebody away" as a component to having a firearm.

The seriousness of taking another human beings life is of the gravest (no pun intended) concern. Even in combat, there are still questions of a Lawful Shooting, you are not supposed to shoot non-combatants. In Law enforcement a review is conducted of every round fired in any situation guns are used. So in situations even when warranted, it is not taken lightly and there are people for whom even as a Law Enforcement officer or in Military Service that have great difficulty in dealing with the emotional after effects of even the most Righteous shooting.

To draw down on another human being is therefore a serious business. It is also a tricky thing, there are many who can't function and make the decision to shoot inspite of the danger or threats. So, it is always good to get training and have an understanding of what you can do legally, in your state, because it varies from state to state what your qualified response is to threats of harm, danger and the various situations. Just as it is good to train with the weapon so that when the time comes you do not fumble and increase the danger or accidentally shoot. In these litigeous times the chance is either the perpatrator will sue you or his family will. So it is also good to know a gun lawyer if you need defending.

I never have had to so far in this lifetime, and I pray to God I never will, but if the situation comes up, I will be that much a head of the curve.

 

[Viola]

So, how many of you guys (who aren't cops or servicemen) have had the opportunity to fire at someone -- and done so?

If you haven't, would you like to be able to do so one day?

No, I have not "had the opportunity" - because I avoid dangerous situations as best I can. And I would certainly like to keep it that way.

I do, however, believe that I have the right to defend myself and would if I had to. Note the "had to." I would rather not be there, and if I had to be there, I would rather run away. But in defense of myself or another innocent person, I would do whatever I had to, up to and including killing.

There is no other adequate means of self-defense besides the firearm. Just showing it can be defense enough in some cases but you have to be able to use it.

And I hold the police in the highest regard but I do not expect superheroic precognitive abilities to be at the right place at exactly the moment a mugger/rapist/dangerous loony appears.

 

[varga49]

So, how many of you guys (who aren't cops or servicemen) have had the opportunity to fire at someone -- and done so?

If you haven't, would you like to be able to do so one day?

I'm not being facetious here. I'm asking this seriously.

.

Your question sounds bizzare! It's the way you've worded this question for me that somehow seems creepy!

 

[geo]

it seems to indicate the desire to "blow somebody away" as a component to having a firearm.

Maybe not a desire, but surely an intended function. I have a pen to write with, a watch to know time, a briefcase to carry papers. Each object was made for something specific, and if you have that object it is to use it for its intended purpose. The only exception are collectors, but they do not carry their collection around with them. So, the function of a handgun is to shoot people. Sure, you could shoot ducks or beer cans with it, but that's not what it was made for. It was made to shoot people.

 

[Pilgrim]

I was a reserve deputy for 7 years, and in the role I gained even more respect for firearms. It's worth noting that 90% or so of firearm use occurs at 7 yards or less. That's up-close and personal, folks. And one thing they really drove home: the ONLY time when deadly force is justified is when you or someone else is in imminent, life-threatening danger. Not concerned, not threatened, but right-this-instant life or death. And when that's the case, you don't shoot to wound - you shoot for the center of mass, to stop and kill. That is VERY serious business - as serious as it's possible to get.

I have gone in through the back door of a liquor store at 1:00 AM with a 12-gauge at port arms, and was immensely relieved to find that the door was only open because the owner was working late. I have waited in the shodows beside some rural grain bins in a patrol car with my partner and two S&W Model 39 semi-autos, a 12-gauge and an M-1 carbine with plenty of spare ammo in case a couple of fleeing bank robbers took our path. the nearest backup was 20 miles away. Fortunately, they didn't come our way.

If there is occasion to have a personal firearm handy (and I do have a concealed weapons permit) it's either my 4" barrel Colt Diamondback in .38 Special or a small Llama .22 semi-auto modeled after the classic Colt .45 ACP, but about 2/3 scale. It's only 6 2/3 inches long and 17 oz in weight. Why? Because a .22 high-vel hollow-point is nothing to mess around with!

However, if I actually thought there was a serious chance of engaging in what Elmer Keith called "social work", I'd opt for the revolver every time. Less to go wrong, no cartridge feed issues, easy to operate, fires when you pull the trigger, and if you can't do the immediate job with six shots you have bigger problems than magazine capacity.

 

[Feraud]

So, how many of you guys (who aren't cops or servicemen) have had the opportunity to fire at someone -- and done so?

If you haven't, would you like to be able to do so one day?

I'm not being facetious here. I'm asking this seriously.

.

I am a proponent of responsible firearm ownership. I believe my life will be a lot simple if I never come across an opportunity to defend my life and shoot someone.
Anyone who wants an opportunity to shoot another person should not own a firearm.

 

[John in Covina]

The desire not the function.

Maybe not a desire, but surely an intended function. I have a pen to write with, a watch to know time, a briefcase to carry papers. Each object was made for something specific, and if you have that object it is to use it for its intended purpose. The only exception are collectors, but they do not carry their collection around with them. So, the function of a handgun is to shoot people. Sure, you could shoot ducks or beer cans with it, but that's not what it was made for. It was made to shoot people.

*********
Many people own Fire extinguishers but have no desire to have to fight a fire.

Many people own a bullet proof vest aka body armor yet have no desire to be shot.

Many people carry an adrennaline hypodermic to ward off the effect of a severe allergy attack, have absolutely no desire to have to use it.

I shoot targets with mine, many people are target shooters and "plinkers", most of them haven't shot anybody either and have no desire to do so.

And yes some people are worth shooting, but the question was not about what something was for but whether one desires to do so.

Now everyone that owns a gun thinks about it's use for protection, and considers it very carefully if they are a thoughful person, but the question is of desire.

OK, if the comet comes and half the world becomes flesh eating zombies yes I desire to shoot somebody if they are a zombie, because in that scenario I am totally righteous in my shooting and I do not have to worry about consequences to my actions. That's why the Terminator movies were a hit, the idea that you as the Terminator could do what you wanted with total impunity so without consequences to your actions. However that type of situation or the Zombie equation, simply won't happen. There will always be consequences to shooting some one to death, even if you don't get caught, you still have to live with it.

Now in the bell curve of humanity, that doesn't mean there are not people who's psycological make up allows them to function with out conscience or empathy but these individuals are rare indeed.

Also since the zombie is no longer a human being, it is this non human idea that was actually was a component of war, to see your enemy not as fellow men but as dangerous blood thirsty animals.

So do gunowners fantasize about some scenario along the lines of the "Death Wish" movies, probably, but the scenario does not play for the real world. A reasoning person also knows that the situation to be a vigilantee and get away with it does not come up. Also with the invetigative techniques, there is less and les chances to get out with out leaving a clue or lead. Also, again, it takes a rare individual to shoot someone down in cold blood and be calculating about it. Not everyone is capable of the construction of the event, as to even "lay in wait" which has it's own consequences when caught.

OK, to fantasize about taking another life, which you may call "the desire" is hinged upon the act alone with out regard to the reality of the consequences of the action. For ordinary people, the realization of what will happen if they acted on such a desire is enough to stop them. The simple knowledge it is wrong stops many.

And in this world we can only judge people by what they do, not by the content of their heart. That is so because as men we cannot read anothers heart, we ca only see what they have done and what they are doing..

 

[Aaron Hats]

If you haven't, would you like to be able to do so one day?

I can't believe this is being asked as a serious question.

When I took my class to get my permit the instructor said he would rather jump out the window than shoot somebody. Remove the fact that you might get sued or arrested. Most of us would be dealing with incredible grief for having killed somebody.

Sure, you could shoot ducks or beer cans with it, but that's not what it was made for. It was made to shoot people.

Believe what you like but there are guns made for all purposes. Yes, there are guns designed to kill people but there are also guns for shooting paper targets, clay targets, hunting squirrels all the way up to elephants.

Aaron

PS: If you target shoot, take a friend with you next time and get them hooked!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I can't believe this is being asked as a serious question. ... Most of us would be dealing with incredible grief for having killed somebody.

Most, but not all. I asked the question to see if any "exceptions" were around here ... and if so, to hear their point of view.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

Former Walther owner

Wow. Americans and there guns. Concealment permits? Having them in your cars? Does my Canadian head in. Here out west we do things a little different. We hunt with them. I need to get my permit still but I have inherited a Remington 12 gauge. Once I get everything legal my father in law is taking me out duck hunting. For a fun, shooting cans off the fence, I would like a Glock 17 but I will most likely get a walther P22 (cheaper). Depending if or when the finances become available.
Johnny.

Johnny,
I used to own a P22, and I don't recommend it. The accuracy isn't bad, but the P22 has too many misfires. :rage: I think it's a problem with the ammo magazines. If you're not totally hooked on a semi-automatic, and you really want to buy a fun .22, try the Ruger Single Six with the exchangable .22 Magnum cylinder. Rapid fire is not possible, being a single-shot revolver, but single shot firing is more involved, and the .22 magnum has a little kick. The Ruger is a little expensive, but worth the price.
Just some advice from a .22-lover.
NB

 

[Katt in Hat]

Have Carry Permit Since I Turned 60

Former Noo Yawker - Never Drove - Use Public Transport - Some Lumbar Problems, Sometimes + Metal Hip

75+ year old very small .25 Belgium Auto.
Probably a Browning Design - Meliors
In family since The War.

"To serve and protect..."
ME!!! :rage:

I'm William Tell from 3 metres in...

Name the Movie and Actor.
A Favourite of many of Us.

 

[Viola]

I don't think I would feel incredible grief, since the violent attacker would have forced my hand. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be sick after but that's not grief, that's gross. I'm not a hunter either.

 

[Story]

Recommended for those of you in need of a basic Primer -

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0936279001/102-9256845-3462539?v=glance&n=283155

In the Gravest Extreme Role of the Firearm (Paperback)
by Massad F. Ayoob

Most of Ayoob's advice is how to avoid having to draw your weapon.

 

[Nathan Flowers]

.

Fantastic recommendation of my favorite book on the subject.

 

[Andykev]

I assume your question was purely academic

Your question sounds bizzare! It's the way you've worded this question for me that somehow seems creepy!

I agree with this reply. It is a bit creepy with the way you asked not what you asked. First, no one should look forward to killing or shooting someone. Even soldiers heading for war are enthusiastic about "adventure" but you read stories from every war we've fought in the last century, WWI, II, Korea, VN, Gulf..etc. the soldiers that fire that weapon and see someone die..that is a hard, cold thing.

It also seems, at least to me, that you have intoned an inherent association of gun ownership, with the desire to "blow things away" , ie. kill.

Not so, as I have almost diminished my shooting these days to the Trap Range, and the shotgun, "Blowing Away" clay disc's. I WANT to blow them away. It is very very hard to do so...something that a golfer can relate to.

Also, I have carried a gun for over 25 years. Never once fired it at ANYONE. I hope never to have to. And, there is NOTHING in my house, except my family, that is worth in monetary value, the NEED to Kill a burgular, thief, or whatever. The NEWS, the LAW, the COURTS, the ATTORNEY, the RELATIVES OF THE DEAD GUY, the entire hassle, moral issues, second guessing of yourself (yes you do that), certainly is not worth protection of my "things".

Your question, if you had asked me across a table while we shared a nice beverage, may have had me blurt out "Are You Kidding Marc?"

 

[johnnycanuck]

Thanks for the tip Not-Bogart13. I have little knowledge of handguns so I am working threw this web page.
http://www.firearmscanada.com/gunmanufacturers.html
Any other recommendations? Web page reviews?
Johnny

 

[John in Covina]

Ayoob!

Recommended for those of you in need of a basic Primer -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0936279001/102-9256845-3462539?v=glance&n=283155
In the Gravest Extreme Role of the Firearm by Massad F. Ayoob
Most of Ayoob's advice is how to avoid having to draw your weapon.

*******
Great reccomendation! Ayoob is clearly one of the most resposible gun writers today with a special talent for explaning situations, tactics and the responsibility of the person protecting themself, or their family. If Ayoob writes about something, it is wise to read it. I don't know if it is a book but he does write in a couple of the gun magazines regularly, and will occasionally bring up "Cute Lawyer Tricks" and how to either A) not set your self up for them or B) how to deflate them.

Ayoob has been in Law Enforcement for decades and is a serious proponant of the right to bear arms. He is well respected by the industry, the Law Enforcement community and by courts all over the US.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

My best, simplest advice

Thanks for the tip Not-Bogart13. I have little knowledge of handguns so I am working threw this web page.
http://www.firearmscanada.com/gunmanufacturers.html
Any other recommendations? Web page reviews?
Johnny

I'm not good at finding gun reviews online, but years of reading magazines and personal experience has taught me this; semi-auto's are over-rated, short barrel guns kick hard, and Glocks are a love-or-hate-it gun. Revolvers are the most reliable, with Ruger and Smith & Wesson (steel frame only) being the best of them. The only semi-autos I can recommend are the Beretta 92 in 9mm, the CZ-95 (supposedly the best handgun in the world), and the Springfield XD. The XD compares favorably with the CZ, and is actually only distributed by Springfield. It's made by a company similar to CZ, but much smaller. Hope I have been helpful, and good luck.
NB

 

[John in Covina]

; semi-auto's are over-rated, short barrel guns kick hard, and Glocks are a love-or-hate-it gun. Revolvers are the most reliable, with Ruger and Smith & Wesson (steel frame only) being the best of them. NB

*******
Semi-autos are used by every special team thru the military and law enforcement. Tactical 7 Rescue teams all use them. HK is often used but often the choice is a well worked 1911A in 45ACP. I have watched a number of competitions run by the SOF guys at the big range outside Las Vegas and the 1911 when set up by a good shop will perform to increadeble standards.

Revolvers are more reliable as they are more forgiving to improper use BUT if a revolver jams you will need a gunsmith to un-jam it. Not that it happens much. Semi's you have to be properly trained to operate, no limp wristing, and use the best ammo that has been tested in the gun, make sure the mags lips are not deformed. That will keep the failure to feed to zip.

Revolvers are excellent, and are easier to train someone on, but if the person is willing to train, semi's should not be dismissed out of hand. Many a wife will after 20 minutes of training outshoot her husband with a good revolver.

For the money Ruger's semi auto in 45ACP is considered a best buy and very reliable, too.

So don't dismiss semi's, they are not for everyone but in a well trained hand are equal to the task.

Also if you are looking to get a gun, go to the range and get trained plus start with a 22 to develope your skills. If you start with a big gun you are more likely to develope some bad habits or a flinching problem. Starting with a 22 lets you comfortably develope stance, hold, aim and breathing skills with out discomfort, then when well instilled you can easily graduate up in bore size.

Ruger makes a semi pistol in 22 that is a joy to shoot and their 22 rifle the 10/22 is always a great gun to learn on and continue to enjoy for a lifetime.