PayPal Tells Buyer To Destroy Purchased Violin Instead Of Return For Refund

[sheeplady]

An attorney is likely cost-prohibitive for a 2.5k item, since many charge $400 an hour.

I like the court of public opinion when a Goliath like PayPal acts with disregard towards us little people, their customers. This story has been getting a lot of publicity and according to regretsy they are looking into it. It was only last month that PayPal stole Christmas, but due to the negative (and rightfully so!) publicity, they made it right! http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/12/paypal_kills_christmas.php

That Christmas fiasco disgusted me. This is what happens when all you care about is following your rules to the letter with no comprehension of context. I understand why they have those policies, BUT they were applied without a crumb of common sense. And there was no reason to be rude to the woman who was trying to coordinate the whole thing. I really don't care if she was in the wrong or not, there's no reason to be rude.

 

[Tomasso]

? She left long ago.

Yes, the person to look at is John Donahoe.

 

[Tomasso]

This is what happens when all you care about is following your rules to the letter with no comprehension of context. I understand why they have those policies, BUT they were applied without a crumb of common sense.

Exactly. They are operating like a government bureaucracy.

 

[gdc]

I think it was mentioned earlier that the seller had a certificate of authenticity or some such thing. If that is the case, I believe that was a bridge too far. These things can always be bought or produced.
The proper thing is to list something like this as either: labeled as_____________, or attributed to______________. A simple google search shows a history of Ebay listings of possibly similar violins as well as current listings on more reputable instrument sites. IF the seller was attempting to sell an inexpensive Chinese violin at a handsome profit through misrepresentation, I applaud both buyer and Paypal. Ebay is in need of a good cleaning.:eusa_clap

 

[C-dot]

IF the seller was attempting to sell an inexpensive Chinese violin at a handsome profit through misrepresentation, I applaud both buyer and Paypal.

It is still no reason for the item to be destroyed. Take a "real life" example - I was no expert on head vases when I decided to start a small collection. I went to an antique market and bought one from an "acclaimed expert" who sold "only REAL vintage", only to return home with it and discover it was a fake. I brought it back to her, thanked her for intentionally duping me, and requested my money back. Despite the situation, she gave the vase a thorough look over to check for damage. Only when she couldn't find anything did she refund my money.

Imagine I had smashed it before going, and handed her the shards in a bag - The outcome would have been reversed. If this is how face-to-face transactions work, why is PayPal or eBay any different?

 

[Connery]

It is still no reason for the item to be destroyed. Take a "real life" example - I was no expert on head vases when I decided to start a small collection. I went to an antique market and bought one from an "acclaimed expert" who sold "only REAL vintage", only to return home with it and discover it was a fake. I brought it back to her, thanked her for intentionally duping me, and requested my money back. Despite the situation, she gave the vase a thorough look over to check for damage. Only when she couldn't find anything did she refund my money.

Imagine I had smashed it before going, and handed her the shards in a bag - The outcome would have been reversed. If this is how face-to-face transactions work, why is PayPal or eBay any different?

I agree with you. Each party agreed to the terms of the contract with Paypal, each party has a way to have a grievance heard should they disagree with Paypal's decision. I know I would enforce my rights if this were my business and I was harmed by Paypal's actions.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Imagine I had smashed it before going, and handed her the shards in a bag - The outcome would have been reversed. If this is how face-to-face transactions work, why is PayPal or eBay any different?

That's because the Reptillians who run eBay/Paypal are from Mars.

 

[gdc]

If the seller was hiding behind a fake appraisal or certificate and not willing to accept the return then what recourse did the buyer have?
Although I initially indicated the sales price may have been fair, after digging deeper it seems greatly inflated. I believe the inflation may have been due to misrepresentation.
I suspect the buyer took it to a local violin shop and was told that it was, in fact a new violin, labeled to appear to be more valuable.

Imagine a new $12.99 Fedora with a fake vintage Borso liner with a Buy it Now price of $125. The buyer receives the hat and immediately suspects a problem. The seller refuses to accept the return and issue a refund, stating 'my local hat shop' verifies that it is a Borsalino, never mentioning that the hat shop is owned by a family member.

Unlabeled 1940's suit with a Hickey Freeman label added to increase the value? Same thing. Imagine how you would feel knowing that fake Hickey Freeman labels are available by the gross???


There IS a lot of speculation here, but this kind of thing goes on constantly in the string instrument market.

Ebay is not the place to buy a violin! Selling a factory fresh $250 Chinese violin for $2,500 because of a piece of paper glued inside? There are people doing this every day and I don't like it a bit.

Although this kind of behavior can occur in dealing with a local instrument dealer, I think it's very rare.

 

[Undertow]

If the seller was hiding behind a fake appraisal...

I agree completely, and I add that the same can be said from the seller's POV.

Even more reason to only deal in-person when it comes to high dollar items, or things easily forged.

In any case, new Chinese instrument or not - don't destroy it.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Unlabeled 1940's suit with a Hickey Freeman label added to increase the value? Same thing. Imagine how you would feel knowing that fake Hickey Freeman labels are available by the gross???

I see your point, but FWIW it's not a great analogy. Most eBay buyers of vintage suits don't care a whit about labels: it's the look and size of the suit that counts, regardless of its maker or quality. One rare exception is the 'Palm Beach Cloth' label, which does add to the price of the vintage suit.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I just don't understand how PayPal can legally order the buyer, who doesn't own the item once they have a refund, to destroy it. PayPal doesn't own it. It's the seller's.

 

[Rudie]

It's because seller and buyer accepted the PayPal terms and conditions. It's a contract both parties agreed to. Being legally sound doesn't necessarily mean making common sense. [huh]

 

[PrettySquareGal]

It's because seller and buyer accepted the PayPal terms and conditions. It's a contract both parties agreed to. Being legally sound doesn't necessarily mean making common sense. [huh]

Just because something is in a contract doesn't make it legal.

 

[Tomasso]

There IS a lot of speculation here

Yep, we're operating on minimal information.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Yep, we're operating on minimal information.

As usual!

 

[Connery]

It's because seller and buyer accepted the PayPal terms and conditions. It's a contract both parties agreed to. Being legally sound doesn't necessarily mean making common sense. [huh]

:violin: I have no sympathy for the seller if she simply lets this situation go away without going after Paypal pursuant to the terms of the contract.

 

[sheeplady]

I was looking over the US counterfeit law, and I think I need a lawyer. But it looks like it would only be counterfeiting if a person was knowingly selling goods that are fakes for financial gain. In addition, it appears to only care about goods that have patents applied to them OR to goods that hold patents from other countries included in the Lantham agreement.

Therefore, the counterfeiting law in the US only is applicable if the seller was purposefully trying to deceive, and the label itself was patented in the US or another country in the Lantham agreement. If I'm interperting it correctly?

I want to see PayPal order all the cherry blossom depression glassware destroyed, they'd fill a landfill: [video=youtube;tsFrZOgTraU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsFrZOgTraU[/video]

 

[C-dot]

That's because the Reptillians who run eBay/Paypal are from Mars.

That's probably why they make people veeery aaaaangry

If the seller was hiding behind a fake appraisal or certificate and not willing to accept the return then what recourse did the buyer have?

This is the whole point - Their recourse is PayPal, who isn't doing anyone a favour with a policy necessitating the senseless destruction of any item. I don't care if it is counterfeit. The buyer should simply prove they mailed the item back to the seller before having PayPal retrieve the money.

As for PayPal's defense that it is illegal for a buyer to mail counterfeit items back to a seller, I highly suspect there is a misinterpretation of the law (or jurispridence therein) at work here. The counterfeiter is the one with intent. The buyer is the dupe. You don't blame a murder victim for being killed.

 

[Connery]

As for PayPal's defense that it is illegal for a buyer to mail counterfeit items back to a seller, I highly suspect there is a misinterpretation of the law (or jurispridence therein) at work here. The counterfeiter is the one with intent. The buyer is the dupe. You don't blame a murder victim for being killed.

Sounds like mail fraud if the US mails were used. I would guess the US government has a whole set of procedures in which to handle this.

 

[TimeWarpWife]

Does this mean that all of those 80s suits listed as 40s on Ebay have to be destroyed?

Could take a while...

Add to the list all the fake Dooney & Bourke handbags and Chanel perfumes I've seen being sold on their site. I wish there was another way to purchase vintage items on Ebay and Etsy other than using PayPal. I got so fed up with PP basically blackmailing me into giving them my bank account info, when they already had my credit card info, otherwise I could no longer make purchases on Ebay and Etsy, that I finally closed my account.