Patterning question

[greenc]

I clearly don't understand patterning so I need to ask - is it possible on a custom jacket to have a wide shoulder measurement with a relatively speaking narrow chest?

Say 51cm (20-inch) shoulders with a 51cm chest?

If someone was of an unconventional proportion would this work? Seems you'd have excess material across the back, no? The correct drape would be difficult to achieve, yes?

If anyone has patterning experience and can shed some light that would be appreciated, thank you.

Chris

 

[Aloysius]

I clearly don't understand patterning so I need to ask - is it possible on a custom jacket to have a wide shoulder measurement with a relatively speaking narrow chest?

Say 51cm (20-inch) shoulders with a 51cm chest?

If someone was of an unconventional proportion would this work? Seems you'd have excess material across the back, no? The correct drape would be difficult to achieve, yes?

If anyone has patterning experience and can shed some light that would be appreciated, thank you.

Chris

What you're calling 'excess material across the back' is back drape. A 'clean' back without some sort of bi-swing or other construction to hide extra material will never be easy to move around in, all the more so with leather. Padding out and extending the shoulders a bit is often a way to make the back drape look more normal.

You can see a nice explanation of the concept here by Terry Haste while fitting one of his customers who is a magazine editor. He even references how it's inherently a different situation from this customer's other suits (which often have half-belt backs). I should add this video to the thread I made of his patterning videos.

One way to achieve back drape, which incidentally is not dissimilar to what @Canuck Panda identified about the extended shoulder V shaped cut of the Indian Ranger, is to have the excess material sort of fold into itself becoming a sort of one-piece bi-swing. You can see Thomas Mahon of Redmayne (and the man you want to go to if you want the classic Anderson & Sheppard drape cut which sadly A&S doesn't really do anymore in favour of making skintight abominations for Daniel Craig) demonstrating it in this video with a Japanese customer.

 

[greenc]

What you're calling 'excess material across the back' is back drape. A 'clean' back without some sort of bi-swing or other construction to hide extra material will never be easy to move around in, all the more so with leather. Padding out and extending the shoulders a bit is often a way to make the back drape look more normal.

You can see a nice explanation of the concept here by Terry Haste while fitting one of his customers who is a magazine editor. He even references how it's inherently a different situation from this customer's other suits (which often have half-belt backs). I should add this video to the thread I made of his patterning videos.

One way to achieve back drape, which incidentally is not dissimilar to what @Canuck Panda identified about the extended shoulder V shaped cut of the Indian Ranger, is to have the excess material sort of fold into itself becoming a sort of one-piece bi-swing. You can see Thomas Mahon of Redmayne (and the man you want to go to if you want the classic Anderson & Sheppard drape cut which sadly A&S doesn't really do anymore in favour of making skintight abominations for Daniel Craig) demonstrating it in this video with a Japanese customer.

Thank you very much, this is terrific information and reference - I appreciate it.

The reason I asked the question is that I saw a jacket which the seller listed as having 47cm shoulders and chest measurements.

At first I thought it must be a mistake, but then thought that perhaps it was a custom piece, but then I immediately began to wonder if such a thing was even possible. I'll watch the videos and will read the article as well. Again, thank you.

Enjoy the coming weekend.

Chris

 

[Aloysius]

Thank you very much, this is terrific information and reference - I appreciate it.

The reason I asked the question is that I saw a jacket which the seller listed as having 47cm shoulders and chest measurements.

At first I thought it must be a mistake, but then thought that perhaps it was a custom piece, but then I immediately began to wonder if such a thing was even possible. I'll watch the videos and will read the article as well. Again, thank you.

Enjoy the coming weekend.

Chris

Shoulders can never be narrower than your actual shoulders (see: physics) but can be wider.

 

[MrProper]

That will work if it's really well tailored. Works with armour too
The question is why? a) You are built like that and still want a jacket that you don't have to wrap around your stomach twice (I know) or b) you like the style with overhanging shoulders.
Whether both look really good? A matter of taste. In the 80s and 90s, shoulder pads were all the rage and it was not uncommon to have excessively broad shoulders with a slim-fitting body.
It will probably be difficult to find a manufacturer who can make such a jacket well.

 

[wayose]

I clearly don't understand patterning so I need to ask - is it possible on a custom jacket to have a wide shoulder measurement with a relatively speaking narrow chest?

Say 51cm (20-inch) shoulders with a 51cm chest?

If someone was of an unconventional proportion would this work? Seems you'd have excess material across the back, no? The correct drape would be difficult to achieve, yes?

If anyone has patterning experience and can shed some light that would be appreciated, thank you.

Chris. Can Am Commander Accessories enhance performance, comfort, and durability for any adventure. Upgraded skid plates and bumpers provide added protection on rough trails. Can Am Commander Accessories like LED light bars and roof racks improve visibility and storage capacity. High-quality seats and harnesses boost comfort for long rides. With the right accessories, your Can Am Commander is ready for any terrain.

Yes, it is possible to have a jacket with wide shoulders and a relatively narrow chest, but it presents challenges in fit and drape. Typically, a jacket’s chest measurement is larger than the shoulder width to allow for movement and proper structure. With a 51cm shoulder and a 51cm chest, the jacket would likely feel tight around the chest and underarms while having excess fabric across the upper back. For someone with unconventional proportions, a skilled tailor would need to make significant pattern adjustments, such as adding darts, shaping seams, or using strategic padding to maintain balance. Achieving the correct drape would be difficult but not impossible with careful tailoring.

 

[Aloysius]

Yes, it is possible to have a jacket with wide shoulders and a relatively narrow chest, but it presents challenges in fit and drape. Typically, a jacket’s chest measurement is larger than the shoulder width to allow for movement and proper structure. With a 51cm shoulder and a 51cm chest, the jacket would likely feel tight around the chest and underarms while having excess fabric across the upper back. For someone with unconventional proportions, a skilled tailor would need to make significant pattern adjustments, such as adding darts, shaping seams, or using strategic padding to maintain balance. Achieving the correct drape would be difficult but not impossible with careful tailoring.

Yeah after seeing OP's follow up this jacket could be quite poorly cut. I think I misunderstood as referring to a big around the shoulders sort of shape with a trimmer midsection.

 

[greenc]

Thank you everyone, I appreciate the thoughts.

I'm generally a size 36 (17-inch shoulders, 39-inch chest) so my question began forming when I was imagining the proportions of a jacket that had shoulder and chest measurements that were the same (47 cm for both as I mentioned above).

I think with suiting fabric a skilled tailor could create a suit coat with the proper drape, but with something as heavy and possibly as stiff as leather - I'm looking at you 3oz horsehide - it would be a very tall order.

I saw a photo of a professional weightlifter with massive shoulders and an extremely narrow waist, which made me imagine the challenges involved with making a ready to wear jacket fit in all the dimensions.

 

[Canuck Panda]

is it possible on a custom jacket to have a wide shoulder measurement with a relatively speaking narrow chest?

Yes,
70s style patterns is exactly what you describe. Super wide shoulder very trim fitting armpits.
Aero Rockafella Size 42 is 20.5" shoulder, 21.5" P2P

Johnson Leathers WWL-41 Size 42 is 20" shoulder, 21" P2P. KDL-72 is the straight zip version and same proportion, size 44 is 21" shoulder 22" P2P

And Johnson also has a racing shirt type of pattern, I am not sure what it is called but it too has super wide shoulder and very trim torso. Very similar to Langlitz Timberline I believe, Size 42 is 19.75" shoulder and 21.75" P2P, no square shoulder on this one, very good for mobility.

Older RMC (before 2006) also has this cut, but it will have to be size 44 or 46 tag to have the same dims as the jackets above in 42.

I have also seen used 70s Orient made jackets (Korea, Taiwan...etc.) in these proportions, so I assume this is a 70s thing.

If you go custom order probably Johnson, but then there is the damn Tariff for Canadians. I just paid stupid taxes on a package from the US last month. I may have to resort to bootlegging it across the border if this continues...

I like these cuts, they give the ultimate slim fit looks,

 

[greenc]

Yes,
70s style patterns is exactly what you describe. Super wide shoulder very trim fitting armpits.
Aero Rockafella Size 42 is 20.5" shoulder, 21.5" P2P
View attachment 692334
View attachment 692335

Johnson Leathers WWL-41 Size 42 is 20" shoulder, 21" P2P. KDL-72 is the straight zip version and same proportion, size 44 is 21" shoulder 22" P2P
View attachment 692342 View attachment 692343
View attachment 692344
View attachment 692345

And Johnson also has a racing shirt type of pattern, I am not sure what it is called but it too has super wide shoulder and very trim torso. Very similar to Langlitz Timberline I believe, Size 42 is 19.75" shoulder and 21.75" P2P, no square shoulder on this one, very good for mobility.
View attachment 692356
View attachment 692357

Older RMC (before 2006) also has this cut, but it will have to be size 44 or 46 tag to have the same dims as the jackets above in 42.

I have also seen used 70s Orient made jackets (Korea, Taiwan...etc.) in these proportions, so I assume this is a 70s thing.

If you go custom order probably Johnson, but then there is the damn Tariff for Canadians. I just paid stupid taxes on a package from the US last month. I may have to resort to bootlegging it across the border if this continues...

I like these cuts, they give the ultimate slim fit looks,
View attachment 692358
View attachment 692359

@Canuck Panda thank you very much for the visual references, they help quite a bit. I never would imagined that shoulder and chest dimensions could be so similiar.

That double riders with the mouton collar is fabulous, as is the one you wear in the photo below it - I love the colors of both.

It's an interesting exercise to look at a flat pattern, or a jacket laid flat, and then imagine it in three dimensions.

I'm a cowboy boot enthusiast and there's a bootmaker in Austin, TX named Lee Miller that's widely considered the best living bookmaker around. He took over the shop of Charlie Dunn who was himself known as the best in his time.

People flock to Lee as much for his ability to measure, observe, and nuance wooden lasts of their feet as they do for the resulting boots. Everything is handmade and Lee has become a master at the subtleties of fitting people, which is part of the reason his boots are so exquisite, and so pricey.

I imagine a leather jacket pattern maker doing a custom piece would ideally achieve the same level of artistry over time. The drape, the nuances of arm length, shoulder shape, etc as those measurements vary from one side of a person's body to the next are all terribly important.

It's my understanding Thedi is quite good at this.

I hear you on the tariffs and import fees, things are getting out of hand. I'm in Toronto and getting things into the country from the U.S. is an expensive proposition.

 

[Aloysius]

People flock to Lee as much for his ability to measure, observe, and nuance wooden lasts of their feet as they do for the resulting boots. Everything is handmade and Lee has become a master at the subtleties of fitting people, which is part of the reason his boots are so exquisite, and so pricey.

I imagine a leather jacket pattern maker doing a custom piece would ideally achieve the same level of artistry over time. The drape, the nuances of arm length, shoulder shape, etc as those measurements vary from one side of a person's body to the next are all terribly important.

It's my understanding Thedi is quite good at this.

I hear you on the tariffs and import fees, things are getting out of hand. I'm in Toronto and getting things into the country from the U.S. is an expensive proposition.

This is almost never achieved in the leather jacket space. Even the guys here who have a 10/10 fitting jacket have another 10 that don't fit for each one of those.

There are a few reasons for this. For one thing, leather is inherently a different material from cloth. It is both the shell and the supporting material; it will mould by itself. There are some people who are really gifted at patterning for leather and your best bet would be actually visiting in store at a place like Johnson in SF, especially if you want something *really* unusual fit wise.

Thedi too has been hit or miss when people don't get it in person, as some of his best customers experienced.

 

[wayose]

Thank you everyone, I appreciate the thoughts.

I'm generally a size 36 (17-inch shoulders, 39-inch chest) so my question began forming when I was imagining the proportions of a jacket that had shoulder and chest measurements that were the same (47 cm for both as I mentioned above).

I think with suiting fabric a skilled tailor could create a suit coat with the proper drape, but with something as heavy and possibly as stiff as leather - I'm looking at you 3oz horsehide - it would be a very tall order.

I saw a photo of a professional weightlifter with massive shoulders and an extremely narrow waist, which made me imagine the challenges involved with making a ready to wear jacket fit in all the dimensions. easyfontgenerator.com

thank you so much for your suggestion

 

[Monitor]

@greenc , how do you know your shoulders are 17"?

 

[greenc]

@greenc , how do you know your shoulders are 17"?

I have three leather jackets that I wear with the following shoulder sizes:

16.5
17
17.25

The 17-inch jacket fits me the best, which is what I'm basing my numbers off of. Typically a size 36 provides me with a shoulder measurement within the 16.5 - 17-ish range.