Jaguar66
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The logic expressed in this thread never ceases to amaze me.
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P-51 crash at Reno Air Races
- Thread starter MPicciotto
- Start date
The logic expressed in this thread never ceases to amaze me.
Speaking of logic, I wonder if the international commercial aviation industry factored in the stroke rate of women on birth control pills when they instituted the mandatory retirement of pilots at age 65.
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I would imagine that those modifications end up increasing both the speed and the G-forces in the planes, but somehow doubt that the post-modification tests include analysis of "non-critical" elements such as seat supports.
Imagine what the seat-support stresses would have been if the pilot wasn't a small guy.
I am guessing that a lot of the other pilots will be inspecting a lot of things they had ignored in the past.
jbmilart
Vendor
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You are right, dnjan...If the NTSB finds out that the pilot seat failed and was one of the factors causing the crash in their investigation, I have no doubt that some regulation and or proceedures will be handed down to all race crews, owners and aeronautical engineers, to completely re-engineer not only the pilot seat...but the entire layout of the cockpit as well. This is not unlike NASCAR or any other highly modified motor racing sports...usually after a terrific crash the NTSB and other governing agencies, get together and go over the crash investigation and make changes to the safety of the race vehicle from that point forward. The problem with Jimmy's accident is that there is not much of the aircraft left... it vaporized on impact! Thank God there wasn't a fire involved at the impact site, as there would have been hundreds more hurt or killed! The NTSB will have to use videos and photos and first hand accounts to try to solve the accident. I myself and my partner, who saw the crash from the start was also interviewed by NTSB and the FAA that night after things had settled down a little and the airfield was secured from "looky loos" wanting to see the impact site...which was a all night problem...mostly from the media!
Jim
Jim
Coming from an engineering background, I appreciate that some of the biggest advances occur after failures. Look what happened to suspension bridge design after the collapse of the first Tacoma Narrows bridge (galloping gertie).
Too bad it is so difficult to anticipate all of the possible failures ahead of time.
Too bad it is so difficult to anticipate all of the possible failures ahead of time.
In all the years of being around and working aircraft I have seen more accidents caused by mechanical failure than caused by health issues.
Scott
I know of several USAF and USN pilots who have been grounded over health issues and they were in their 40s.
Jaguar66
A-List Customer
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The extensive fragmentation of the plane is something I noticed also. No large wing pieces or tail pieces, things usually seen in a plane crash.
jbmilart
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The largest piece I came across at the point of impact was a 1/4 of a prop sheared off at the knuckle which attaches to the hub assembly. The reports of the impact crater has been noted as being over 6 feet deep...Nope... about 2 1/2 feet at it's deepest point and about 6 feet long reaching towards the taxi way near runway 26-8. There was also no noticable smell of aviation fuel at the site...could be for the 10 m.p.h. winds we had that day. All I know is I was much too busy to really notice much of any fine details during that day... but keeping in contact with some of the first responders that were with me and talking about what had transpired I am starting to remember other details that were around me at that time...some not too pleasant.
Jim
Jim
Bluebird Marsha
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^^^
I'm so sorry about your friend. I've really appreciated your comments here, since what I know about the subject wouldn't make a thimble overflow. I don't want to even imagine what the crash site must have been like. Take care of your self.
I'm so sorry about your friend. I've really appreciated your comments here, since what I know about the subject wouldn't make a thimble overflow. I don't want to even imagine what the crash site must have been like. Take care of your self.
jbmilart
Vendor
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Thank you for those kind words Bluebird Marsha... I am fine and doing well. Just wanted to set the story straight about what happened...from my perspective...as there have been a lot of false rumors. I have been in constant contact with friends at the Air Race Association and in the aviation industry there in Reno, since I have returned home, giving me updates about the investigation...which is still on going and probably will for weeks if not months. I only hope that people try to understand that everything that happened that friday afternoon was not the fault of the pilot or the Air Race Association but of a mechanical failure.
Jim
Jim
Ninal NTBS Report
I notice no one has updated this thread with all it's wild speculation! Here is the official NTBS report. Sadly, it was a simple locking nut failure, what we call a Nylock, or a nut with a nylon insert designed to prevent the nut from coming lose. The nylon insert came lose and caused a chain reaction. Unfortunately, the pilot lost conscious and was no longer in control of the aircraft, so sadly, no heroic steering the aircraft away from the stands, that was just wish full thinking on the part of spectators. So a nut that cost less then $5.00 was the cause! http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf
I notice no one has updated this thread with all it's wild speculation! Here is the official NTBS report. Sadly, it was a simple locking nut failure, what we call a Nylock, or a nut with a nylon insert designed to prevent the nut from coming lose. The nylon insert came lose and caused a chain reaction. Unfortunately, the pilot lost conscious and was no longer in control of the aircraft, so sadly, no heroic steering the aircraft away from the stands, that was just wish full thinking on the part of spectators. So a nut that cost less then $5.00 was the cause! http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf
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Thanks for posting the report.
The pilot was pulling over 17 Gs just after the bolt failure and resulting loss of control. No wonder he lost consciousness. Even I couldn't withstand that! Doubt that he was wearing a G suit, either. And he was making good time on that course. His max speed was 527 mph, or 458 knots. Those planes won't go that fast without heavy modifications, which this one had.
I was taught that the nylon lock nuts should not be reused if one wants them to actually lock the bolt in place. And this was in a very sensitive application where bolt malfunction can, and did, result in catastrophic failure. And the failure bolt wasn't the only one that had a reused lock nut: "For each intact screw, the fiber locknut insert material applied little to no clamping pressure on the screw threads, and all of the inserts showed evidence of age and reuse." Scary.
In an application as sensitive as this, I think a liquid lock tight on the nuts and bolts would be better. That's what I use when I don't want a bolt coming loose. No way to accidentally or negligently reuse a bolt without re--treating it.
The pilot was pulling over 17 Gs just after the bolt failure and resulting loss of control. No wonder he lost consciousness. Even I couldn't withstand that! Doubt that he was wearing a G suit, either. And he was making good time on that course. His max speed was 527 mph, or 458 knots. Those planes won't go that fast without heavy modifications, which this one had.
I was taught that the nylon lock nuts should not be reused if one wants them to actually lock the bolt in place. And this was in a very sensitive application where bolt malfunction can, and did, result in catastrophic failure. And the failure bolt wasn't the only one that had a reused lock nut: "For each intact screw, the fiber locknut insert material applied little to no clamping pressure on the screw threads, and all of the inserts showed evidence of age and reuse." Scary.
In an application as sensitive as this, I think a liquid lock tight on the nuts and bolts would be better. That's what I use when I don't want a bolt coming loose. No way to accidentally or negligently reuse a bolt without re--treating it.
splintercellsz
I'll Lock Up
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Thanks for the report, Stearmen!
Peacoat, thanks for that tidbit of info.
Peacoat, thanks for that tidbit of info.
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The product I use is "Loctite." I ratted around and found it when I was in my shop just now. Works very well, but is fairly expensive in small quantities at the local auto parts store where I get mine. Probably get a better deal with larger quantities online. Comes in three strengths. I use the light to medium adhesive, but would use the heavy if I were modifying a race plane. Never had a failure.
dr greg
One Too Many
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Loctite
An old bush mechanic of my acquaintance assures me that Ladies Nail Polish/lacquer is just as effective as Loctite and a damn sight cheaper, dunno if I'd trust my life to it in a high performance aircraft, but for general use, it seems so....
An old bush mechanic of my acquaintance assures me that Ladies Nail Polish/lacquer is just as effective as Loctite and a damn sight cheaper, dunno if I'd trust my life to it in a high performance aircraft, but for general use, it seems so....
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A great idea; thanks.
The military replaces the Nylocks every time. Civilians are suppose to check them with a torque wrench, not always posable. I new some who would just see if they could move the nut by hand, not my idea of safe! I had a boss who I would have to fight tooth and nail to replace a Nylock on the WWII Iron. Thats how the rich get richer, counting every penny! Loctite is great, I now use Honda Lock which is much cheeper, but same quality. A little goes a long ways!
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