P-51 crash at Reno Air Races

[MPicciotto]

Just horrific!

http://news.yahoo.com/official-more-75-injured-air-race-crash-004947158.html

Matt

 

[mflemming]

Apparently the pilot was 80 years old. With all due respect to capable people of that age, flying 500 mph 50 feet off the deck when you just don't have the eyes or reflexes of a 20 year old might not be the greatest idea of all time.

 

[dhermann1]

I just posted another identical thread. Maybe the bartenders could merge them. I've made my point of view clear before on the issue of these kinds of events. I just don't like them. To me it's like football and boxing. I passionately love and enjoy them all, but I think they're just too dangerous, and if they were banned, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

 

[mflemming]

But where would it stop? Would you ban the Indy 500? Nascar? High school athletes have collapsed and died so should track and field be banned?

After my first post I realized that we don't know yet if it was mechanical failure or what. An equally good case could be made that 60 year old airframes should not be pushed to 500 mph at 50 feet.

 

[dhermann1]

Yes! Everybody sytay home and do NUTTTHIN'. But seriously, it's a difficult point. I think the issue to me is the closeness of the spectators. If a pilot wants to be a dare devil, let him. But the spectators should be out of harm's way. And I still hate seeing those original planes crack up.

 

[MPicciotto]

A couple of points.

1. If you look at the air race course at Reno the aircraft and the crowd are near each other for a brief time. Considering the balance between the thrill seeking desires of ticket purchasers and safety it seems that the people in Reno set things up in such a way to minimize the chances of this sort of event while still selling tickets.

2. Is it an original P-51? and if it is how much of it is actually original? In the unlimited class these things are almost like NASCAR the shape of the original car is about where the relationship ends. A few years ago there was at least one company producing entire P-51 air frames with slight tweaks, selling them as kits to air racers as "Thunder Mustang"

Matt
Who might have a hard time getting his wife to go to the air races now

 

[MPicciotto]

In an edit the aircraft in question was a P-51D manufactured in 1944 and has been flying in the air races ever since 1946!!

http://www2.leewardairranch.com/racing/history/cleveland

Matt

 

[Sgt Brown]

A later article put the pilot's age at 74. Still...

The races were originally moved to Reno from Cleveland, where they were held over/around Cleveland Hopkins Airport. That came to an end in 1949 when Bill Odom put his Mustang into a house in, IIRC, Berea, OH, and killed three. The idea was to get the race "out in the middle of nowhere" for safety reasons. That's over 60 years ago. Have financial considerations (more ticket sales) taken over from safety considerations?

I don't know. I could be full of it.

Tom

 

[dhermann1]

In defense of 80 year old pilots, from everything I've ever read and seen, pilots just get better and better with age. I know the reflexes are not the same, so they might not be good fighter pilots any more, but I would feel safe with any 70 or 80 year old pilot who has been flying continuously and keeping up his proficiency. I'm sure there was a mechanical problem. They said he appeared to be trying to aim the plane away from the crowd. I doubt a younger pilot could have done significantly better in the circumstances.

 

[Jeff M]

Interesting photos of the plane showing a broken trim tab...

and an "empty" cockpit just before the crash.

Plus...the tail wheel is down without the main landing gear.

 

[Stearmen]

It would appear that he unfortunately had no control over the aircraft and was probably unconscious during at least part of the final moments. I do have trouble with the folding chairs for the VIP spectators, they should not have been there. Very tragic, but I do not want to stop all air racing! As for age, we had a saying, the two most dangerous pilots are, the ones with under 1000 hours and the ones with over 10,000 hours. The under 1,000 are to green and the over 10,000 are complacent.

 

[Atticus Finch]

In defense of 80 year old pilots, from everything I've ever read and seen, pilots just get better and better with age.

This may be true up to a point. At some point, though, I think age takes its toll.

My father was a fighter pilot in WWII and continued to fly civilian aircraft until he was in his early eighties. Except for a couple of engine failures (one with me), his entire flying career was totally uneventfull. Then one day, when he was about eighty-three, he started up his Cessna 150...just like a thousand times before...and taxied it headlong into a drainage ditch. He said the plane "just got away from him", but I cain't imagine that happening when he was a younger man. Anyhow, it was his last flight as "pilot in command". After that, voluntarily grounded himself except for flying co-pilot with his friends. I still have the bent prop from his 150. It lookes like a pretzel and hangs over the door to my woodshop. Its still one of my favoite reminders of him.

AF

 

[dhermann1]

Here's a quote from the AP story:

"Organizers softened two of the curves pilots negotiate after crashes into nearby neighborhoods in 1998 and 1999. In 2007 and 2008, four pilots were killed at the races, prompting local school officials to consider barring student field trips to the event."

You don't see comments like this about baseball games and basketball games. Yes, there have been fluke accidents even at baseball games, but they were real flukes. This is a pattern.

I do think there should be some opportunity for old warbirds to fly. I've been at airshows where they flew in and flew out, quite safely. But I'm still appalled at the kinds of stories that pop up all too frequently.

 

[ButteMT61]

Yep. Ban it all. Fast food, cars, motorcycles, SCUBA, motorcycles, skydiving, bicycles, horses, booze, cigars, flying, you name it!
No thanks. Don't go if you don't like it, but pretty please - with sugar on top, don't try to sterilize the world I also live in.
I did an article in the 1980's for the UCLA paper when California was voting on the helmet laws for motorcyclists. The stat's I pointed out on other much more dangerous things got a lot of attention, but the safetycrats won in the end. FWIW, I always wear a lid - just don't like other's worrying too much about how I live. It's a slippery slope folks. A safe world doesn't sound all to appealing to me - within reason. But please, let me decide on the risks I want to take.

 

[Stearmen]

Baseball Deaths

You don't see comments like this about baseball games and basketball games. Yes, there have been fluke accidents even at baseball games, but they were real flukes. This is a pattern.

Little league baseball averages 3.3 deaths per year from baseball strikes to the head and chest, not including heat and other causes of death, Reno is 2.14 deaths a year!

 

[Fletch]

But balance that out against the number of attendees/participants...

 

[MPicciotto]

Let's please keep this civil. dhermann1 has stated his view point, he did so in a most gentlemanly way. Let's please keep things that way. I do want to add that with regard to the use of historic aircraft they are but only one of several classes of aircraft flown in air racing, and as I previously pointed out even then not many parts are actually original and in some cases entire air frames are of new manufacture.

It should be recognized that this pilot like many war bird pilots before lost his life and his aircraft while doing his best to minimize casualties.

Matt

 

[Fletch]

Apologies if my comment offended anyone - I thought it a rather neutral observation, FWTW.

 

[Tango Yankee]

I do think there should be some opportunity for old warbirds to fly. I've been at airshows where they flew in and flew out, quite safely. But I'm still appalled at the kinds of stories that pop up all too frequently.

Crashes happen. They happen with current aircraft and they happen with vintage aircraft. I was at an air show in South Carolina nine years ago when a Corsair went down. I watched it go by overhead as part of a flyby and noticed vapor or smoke streaming out behind it. I told the person I was with that the guy was in trouble, and we watched as the Corsair and another plane peeled off from the formation in an attempt to go around so he could land. He didn't make it. As we often hear in this type of situation, the pilot managed to pull up the Corsair to keep it from going down into some houses, and went down into a swampy area instead. The pilot in the accompanying plane was his son, who watched his father go down.

So far as the vintage aircraft goes, there is always an ongoing debate as to whether or not they should be allowed to keep flying or kept grounded so they won't be put at risk (the aircraft, not the pilots.) I say let 'em fly. The pilots know the risks and opt in.

As for attendees at air shows and air races, they're taking a risk just as we all do in life. I'm sure there are statistics that can prove that they are more likely to die in the car driving to or from the show than while there, but there is always the chance. That's what life is about.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Tango Yankee]

Apologies if my comment offended anyone - I thought it a rather neutral observation, FWTW.

I thought so too, FWIW. You were simply suggesting a statistical comparison, which would probably show that an individual is more likely to witness a crash at an air race than to witness a death at a Little League game.

Cheers,
Tom