Opie/Cowboys and Indians

[Tomasso]

This thread has reminded me to get my Fanner 50's back from the gunsmith.

 

[Foofoogal]

I love reading all the answers here. I am still wondering though if the need to have heroes which seem to be lacking makes this a prime time for Westerns.
Good guy vs bad guy. Not necessarily Cowboys and Indians. [huh]
I wish I had the money to produce a good Western. I think it would do well right now myself.
Wonder what the last good Western was a good money maker.
Something with Robert Duvall maybe?

 

[scotrace]

In summer, (my parents both worked) I would be out and about all day and come in when I heard the call for dinner. The rule was "be home by dark." I rode my bike for miles. And got into little trouble. Sometimes I'd mooch lunch at a friend's, sometimes just skip it. But I also watched a lot of TV.

I wouldn't consider letting my kids roam like that without knowing exactly where they were and who they were with now.

 

[flat-top]

Growing up in the Bronx in the heart of my parish, I had to be home every night when the 6 o'clock church bells rang. If I wasn't home by 6:15, my mother would be combing the streets for me. The neighborhood was safe, but that was just my mother.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I went just about anywhere I wanted, on foot, from the age of five. We lived in town, so everything was within walking distance, and it was nothing for me to walk to the store or school or the park or the shore. The only place I was forbidden to go was "the O'Brien house," because as everybody knew, the parents were drunks and the kids were no good. And of course because of that they were the most popular kids in the neighborhood.

We had a 9 pm curfew. The air raid siren on top of the town office would blow at 9:15, and any kid on the streets after that was subject to arrest -- a cop would actually haul you into the cruiser and take you home, and write out a citation for your mother. You did NOT want to be on the receiving end of that.

 

[Foofoogal]

Lizzie, this reminds me of the service announcement at about 9:00 that stated, "it is 9:00, do you know where your children are?"
Does anyone remember this?

We went everywhere. We actually were forbidden to hang around all day. We would pack a lunch and head into the fields near our house. 100 kids on our block. You name it, we did it.
Jacks, stilts, tops, marble games, chinaberry fights, sword grass fights, mud fights, mudpies, forts, dug tunnels, climbed trees, red rover, freeze tag, dodge ball, stared at clouds for hours etc. I didn't hardly ever wear shoes except to church on Sunday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siLcSl2nmqA

Man, I so love this song. Not the tavern part but reminds me of Shakeys Pizza place we went to. The Dixie band played this song all the time.

 

[DutchIndo]

Yes kids have it different today. Just watching my son grow up was kind of sad. He and his friends were screwed growing up. Halloween we walked miles by ourselves, my kid only went down our street. Most boys I went to school with was in a Scout Troop. Do Scouts still exist ? We played "Kill the Bum" or "Smear the ***** " till somebody got a bloody lip or nose. We rode our "Sting Rays" not "Montain Bikes" to the Beach down a riverbed. I would not even trod down this riverbed in daylight ...Armed. The trip was 10 miles into the onshore wind. Kids don't get out now not because they don't want to it's just not safe. I live by a Elementary and Jr High School it takes me 15 min to travel 1/2 a block . Every student has their parent drop and pick up their kids. Parents are paranoid I don't blame them I was one of them. They had recently banned Sodas and Snack items at schools here because kids are overweight. It's because of the above and the fact kids play Video Games and are not out burning calories. I was more fortunate than my Son I had a GREAT Childhood.

 

[carouselvic]

This is all back in the good ol' days....back when the air was clean and sex was dirty.

 

[Rick]

C'mon now do something about it!

There have been a few Cowboy movies out there that have been AWESOME and well within tradition.

OPEN RANGE is a new classic.
3:10 TO YUMA could've been an old Clint movie.

I am 32 in a few days. I have two very young boys 3 & 1.5, & one undetermined Gender any moment now literally.

My three year old is more than ripe for all that you've all said. He is thriving in his attempt to find right and wrong, good and bad.
To that end, he is enthralled with movies that remind me of those I have vivid memories of when I was a very young boy.
Follow along and I'm sure you can see their value.
Though they may have only been movies to those older than I at the time (and good ones at that) they were very much an influence on my very core.

RED DAWN is one that I think is ingrained in my soul. We'd run around the neighborhood yelling "Wolverines!" as we laid waste to the enemies of personal liberty and freedom. Sure it was bout Soviets and the US, but it was mostly about GOOD and BAD and being behind the odds and still fighting and never stop fighting for what is right. As one of you have for a tag line... Force can not change Right. This is taught in this moviea and others.
Any Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, John Wayne movie followed suit.

Shows of today don't cut the mustard. BARNEY the purple idiot dinosaur for instance. Kids are much more capable in their comprehension than we give credit for.

I am happy to let my son watch the likes or Iron Man, Batman, & Spiderman. He loves them. The languange isn't worse than he hears around the house. The Violence can be a bit real, but violence is real, and its not any worse than what I watched.

Don't harness children and hold them back to "protect" them. Try real hard to remember ourselves as children and allow them the same freedom.
I don't know where you all live, but I can promise you that the place you all talk of as being long gone does in fact exist by the multitude in this Wonderful USA. It may not be in the same place as it was 30 years ago, but its still there.

I live there, and you are welcome here too.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Did they play cowboys and indians naturally or because of the westerns on tv. With the need for a hero I would think it would play well with children.

Which begs the question: how would Loungers feel if cowboys and Indians returned as a childhood game, but with the Indians as the good guys and the cowboys as the bad guys? Just curious. [huh]

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[Marc Chevalier]

We played "Kill the Bum" or "Smear the *****" till somebody got a bloody lip or nose.

Ah yes, "Smear the Queer." (Might as well call a spade a spade.)


We played warball at my all-boys prep school in L.A. The goal to was to shed blood. I remember the joy we felt when some runty little kid --especially one that seemed "queer"-- was visibly injured. It was our way of fighting back against the reputation that all-boys schools have (among rival boy/girl schools, at least) for being "queer" breeding grounds.


Back to the topic ... I'm old enough to have played cowboys and Indians. The problem was that no one really wanted to play an Indian, since he'd end up getting "killed" at the end of the game. As we played it, the cowboys always 'had' to win. It was that way on TV, so it had to be right way.

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[Marc Chevalier]

This is all back in the good ol' days....back when the air was clean and sex was dirty.

Before the Industrial Revolution?

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[Big Man]

... RED DAWN is one that I think is ingrained in my soul. We'd run around the neighborhood yelling "Wolverines!" as we laid waste to the enemies of personal liberty and freedom. ...

Will, is that you? When did you move to Indiana and change your name?

Seriously, you sound just like my son. When he was growing up (and he is about two years your junior), Red Dawn was the movie that played over and over on the VCR. He and his brother played the same way. He now has children of his own (ages 6 and 4), and they play the same way.

For birthdays and Christmas, I buy my grandchildren DVD's of some of the "good old shows and movies". You would be surprised how much younger children still enjoy the old B-grade westerns, the Little Rascals, the Daniel Boone and the Davy Crockett TV series, and such. Some of those old shows are not "politically correct"; but that in itself presents an opportunity to discuss with them how times have changed and how people see and interact with each other better now. I believe it has helped my grandchildren grow and mature.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I grew up watching The Little Rascals (1930s & '40s) on a local TV station. Now there was a show that was politically incorrect for its time: it showed a black kid hanging out and playing as an equal with a bunch of white kids. Not your typical '30s media fare.


In a similar (if less equal) vein, the Lone Ranger and Tonto had each other. Then again, "Tonto" is also a Spanish word for "stupid".

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[Big Man]

... Now there was a show that was politically incorrect for its time: it showed a black kid hanging out and playing as an equal with a bunch of white kids. Pretty trippy stuff.

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Maybe or maybe not. My Dad's first playmate was a black child that lived down the road. This was around 1926. [huh]

I grew up playing with black kids in the neighborhood. We went to different schools, but played together after school. I don't think we ever noticed we were "different". This was in the early 1960's.

I guess a lot depends on where you are from ...

 

[Rick]

No Big Man, but your son sounds like a fine man raising fine kids.
I started to ramble too much and I know no-one would read if I did (too much).
My intention is to do the same with my kids as far as bringing the old shows around and that'll be what they watch. Bonanza, Rifleman, Palladin, Marshal Dillon these are shows I watched and the credit is to my father.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure I watched plenty of silly shit too, but Always had a good foundation.
My kids will play outside and not only if directly supervised. I can't wait to buy them their own BB guns so they too can shoot themselves. We wore motorcycle helmets until summer then we just said no head shots.

Lucky Luck were we, and I hope that Lucky Lucky my sons will be.

I can understand all the fear, but I will not let it interfere with their growth.
All the screw-ups and near death experiences got me here. I'm greatful for almost all of them.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Maybe or maybe not. My Dad's first playmate was a black child that lived down the road. This was around 1926. [huh]

You're absolutely right: that was a reality. But on the whole, the entertainment media of the 1920s, '30s and '40s did not show that kind of reality. Our Gang/The Little Rascals was a cool exception.

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[Big Man]

... Then again, "Tonto" is also a Spanish word for "stupid".

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If "Tonto" is Spanish for "stupid", them possibly "Kemosobi" is some Native American dialect for "idiot white man who doesn't speak Spanish."

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Bonanza, Rifleman, Palladin, Marshal Dillon these are shows I watched ...

My three favorite TV Western series from my childhood:

-- "The Virginian"

-- "Maverick"

-- "Wild, Wild West"


Two of the three were comedies with action.


One TV Western sitcom that I couldn't stomach: "Petticoat Junction".


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[Marc Chevalier]

If "Tonto" is Spanish for "stupid", them possibly "Kemosobi" is some Native American dialect for "idiot white man who doesn't speak Spanish."

lol Big Man, you've inspired me to google this thing. Here are the most interesting results:



* Dr. Goddard, of the Smithsonian Institution, was reported as believing that Kemo Sabe was from the Tewa dialect. He supported his contention by calling on the "Ethnogeography of the Tewa Indians" which appeared in the 29th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1916). It seems that in Tewa, "Apache" equates to Sabe and "friend" to Kema.


* Another souce states that kemosabe means "white shirt" in Apache.


* A scholar from the University of California at Berkley thought that Kemo Sabe came from the Yavapai, a dialect spoken in Arizona and meant "one who is white," since the Ranger always wore a white shirt and trousers in the earliest publicity photos. The Yavapai term is "kinmasaba" or "kinmasabeh"


* Jim Jewell, who directed "The Lone Ranger" until 1938 said he'd lifted the term from the name of a boys' camp at Mullet Lake just south of Mackinac, Michigan called Kamp Kee-Mo Sah-Bee. The camp had been established in 1911 by Jewell's father-in-law, Charles Yeager, and operated until about 1940. Translation of kee-mo sah-bee, according to Jewell was "trusty scout."


* According to Rob Malouf, a grad student in linguistics at Stanford, there's another possibility: "According to John Nichols' Concise Dictionary of Minnesota Ojibwe, the Ojibwe word `giimoozaabi' means `to peek' (it could also mean `he peeks' or `he who peeks'). Rob continued: "There are several words with the same prefix ["giimooj," secretly] meaning things like `to sneak up on someone'.... It is quite plausible that `giimoozaabi' means something like `scout'.... `Giimoozaabi' is pronounced pretty much the same as `kemosabe' and would have been spelled `Kee Moh Sah Bee' at the turn of the century."


* The Alberta Elders' Cree Dictionary includes kiimootaapiwin 'the act of peeking' or 'a Peeking (or Peeping) Tom'. This recognizably employs kiimoot- 'secretly' and -aap-.'to see'. The -iwin is apparently the singular inanimate noun (NI) final. Cree is yet another Algonquian dialect continuum, but north of Ojibwe, so forms with a similar morphology and meaning are apparently fairly widely attested in Great Lakes region Algonquian, though the Potawatomi and Ojibwe versions are more consistent with Kemosabe in form.


* In his book of humour and observation, noted columnist James Smart observes that the New York Public Library defines "Kemo Sabe" as meaning Soggy Shrub in the Navajo language. His entertaining collection is appropriately titled "Soggy Shrub Rides Again and other improbabilities."



* An interesting side light comes from the son of Fran Striker, "It is usually assumed that Kemo Sabe is how the Ranger refers to Tonto. However, in many of the early radio broadcasts, the Ranger calls Tonto "Kemo Sabe" AND Tonto also calls the Ranger "Kemo Sabe".



* Another suggestion has been that Tonto, (whose name means "stupid" according to some interpretations) responded by calling the Lone Ranger "qui no sabe" which roughly translates from Spanish as "he who knows nothing" or "clueless.



* The closest thing to Tonto in Ojibwe is perhaps dende 'bullfrog', with a nod to Michael McCafferty (p.c.) for suggesting it. A related form occurs in Potawatomi gchidodo (gchi- is 'big', -dodo is the 'frog' part). The form offered here has been respelled in modern fashion by David Costa (p.c.) from Gatchet's fieldnotes.) In fact, in some Algonquian languages 'bullfrog' is actually something like tonto- or dondo-, but, unfortunately for our purposes, the word loses the n in Potawatomi, and changes vowels from o to e in Ojibwe.


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