Ok, so some things in the golden era were not too cool...

[AtomicEraTom]

And I will never understand why people need that to feel good about themselves. If you're happy with who you are and what you do, then be happy with it. There's no need to compare yourself to others. Just do your own thing.

Because then they wouldn't have Those Other People to look down on, and what's the point of prosperity if there's no rabble to lord it over?

 

[LizzieMaine]

People don't define themselves by who they *are.* They define themselves by who they *aren't."

 

[Blackjack]

There has been an influx of minorities into Hillsdale, too, which coincides with an increase in drug and property crime. the 2010 census shows that we are now only 96.53% European origin, with 1.53% Latino, .01% Pacific Islander, .05% Native American, .83% Asian, .60% African origin, 1.06% two or more races, and .49% "Other". The increase in drug and property crime MUST therefore be related to the influx of these other races, at least using what appears to be your rule of thumb "post hoc, ergo propter hoc", for back in 1990 when reported crime was lower we were nearly 99% of European origin.

The closing of the Stock (Pillsbury) mill, Hillsdale Tool, Addison Products, Vaco (Klein) Tool, Alson's Plumbing Products, Delta Faucets, Essex Wire and Cable, SKD Products, National Milling, Quincy Die, and Hillsdale Products Standard Sash and Millwork, and Simpson Mfg, and concomitant the utter collapse of our job market would have noting to do with any increase in crime.

Of course much of the increase in reported crime in our city is in minor property crime, things like mailbox baseball and graffiti, problems which formerly would not have a formal police report. The drug crime generally involves (white) city folk who come out hear to the "sticks" to set up drug manufacturing labs in vacant isolated houses, which are often then so badly damaged and contaminated that after a drug raid the house is commonly demolished.

If you read what I wrote, I was referring to what was posted in the newspapers police blotter every week where they put the names of individuals who commit crimes. When 90% of the names sound Hispanic it's a pretty good guess that they are Hispanic "using what appears to be my rule of thumb". I know it just kills a lot of folks (clearly like you) not to be able to lay full blame to the white middle class American male for all the problems in the world but hey, sometimes life just gives you lemons, ya know...

 

[1961MJS]

People don't define themselves by who they *are.* They define themselves by who they *aren't."

Wow Lizzie, I have never thought of that before. That's kind of sick in a way (sick is too strong, but I'm tired). Unfortunately I'm pretty sure you're also right, which makes it worse.

I'm not a lot of things, but with the exception of wealthy, I like most of them pretty well.

Later

 

[1961MJS]

The last time that I mentioned the Four Freedoms (at rather Austrian influenced cocktail party in my town of Hillsdale MI, home of Hillsdale College) I was accused of being a Socialist.

Hi

The Four Freedoms, I had to look them up, are a strange mix in that respect.

Freedom of speech and expression
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

Freedom of speech and expression is a more bipartisan "Freedom". Freedom of worship is primarily seen as conservative idea. Freedom from want is usually supported more from the liberal side and is seen as income re-distribution by the conservatives. Freedom from fear is a bipartisan idea, but the methodology for achieving that freedom isn't as bipartisan. I'd have to give Hilsdale a 50/50 on that one.

Later

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

It does sort of make sense. No matter where you are it seems like you're always wishing you were somewhere else -- even when you are right where you want to be!
hmmmm... now I'm not sure THAT made any sense

 

[Tomasso]

I know it just kills a lot of folks (clearly like you) not to be able to lay full blame to the white middle class American male for all the problems in the world

Oh come on, you know white guys have it easy.....


[video=metacafe;5977662/white_like_me/]http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5977662/white_like_me/[/video]

 

[LizzieMaine]

Hi

The Four Freedoms, I had to look them up, are a strange mix in that respect.

Boy, that's surprising -- I mean, I always took it for granted that The Four Freedoms were considered a bedrock expression of American values -- they weren't "liberal" or "conservative" or Republican or Democratic or any of that stuff. They were simply what America was all about. We were taught about them in grammar school, in Sunday school, in Girl Scouts, people made speeches about them on the Fourth of July -- you get the idea. In fact, when I think of "Golden Era Values," the Four Freedoms are about as definitive a description of what they really were as I can think of. I know modern culture hasn't done much to live up to them, but I didn't realize that they had receded that far from public consciousness.

I'm not saying that to be sarcastic, either -- I really am astonished.

 

[Tomasso]

I never heard the term until college.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Jeez.

 

[LizzieMaine]

"In the future days which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want, which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor -- anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called "new order" of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb."

-- Franklin D. Roosevelt, January 6, 1941.

And that's what we fought for in the Second World War. That's what "Golden Era Values" were all about.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

According to FDR's address to congress of January 6th, 1941,...The Four Freedoms:

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want -- which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear -- which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor-- anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

To that new order we oppose the greater conception -- the moral order. A good society is able to face schemes of world domination and foreign revolutions alike without fear.

Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change -- in a perpetual peaceful revolution -- a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions -- without the concentration camp or the quick-lime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society.

This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women; and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose.

To that high concept there can be no end save victory.
Oops,...ya beat me to it Lizzie. You're faster on the keyboard.
Anyway, since FDR was a Democrat, maybe this could then be considered a Democratic party concept?

 

[Retro_GI_Jane]

Most people consider Democrats to be closet Socialists. (And thanks, Lizzie, now I know what Bing was referencing when he was singing in Holiday Inn..."Here comes the Freedom Man." And count me in; we were never taught the Four Freedoms in school.) But reading FDR's speech, it can be construed as Socialism...it does read as if he is speaking of a one world order.

 

[vitanola]

Anyway, since FDR was a Democrat, maybe this could then be considered a Democratic party concept? [/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

If you say so.

Are you suggesting that Republicans would or should oppose these ideals?

I know some that do, but pray that they are not the main stem of their party. A number of these folks
aspire to leadership, though.

 

[vitanola]

Most people consider Democrats to be closet Socialists. (And thanks, Lizzie, now I know what Bing was referencing when he was singing in Holiday Inn..."Here comes the Freedom Man." And count me in; we were never taught the Four Freedoms in school.) But reading FDR's speech, it can be construed as Socialism...it does read as if he is speaking of a one world order.

"most people consider..."

In what parallel universe?

let's try that again:


"most people consider..."
I suppose it depends on your definition of "people"


No, that was far, far too harsh.
well, a bit harsh, at least.

 

[PoohBang]

gee and I wonder why there are just one group of people here on the lounge... I think I've had enough.

 

[Tomasso]

I think I've had enough.

 

[Retro_GI_Jane]

"most people consider..."

In what parallel universe?

let's try that again:


"most people consider..."
I suppose it depends on your definition of "people"


No, that was far, far too harsh.
well, a bit harsh, at least.

I have read enough about FDR to believe he was a Socialist. I know others who believe the same. And while I can't speak of members of the political ring in the Golden Age, I do know that there is a good number of Democrats currently "serving" that are Democratic Socialists. You can research this information yourself and see who it is. I have no problem admitting that I did not serve ten years in the military to watch this nation turn to Socialism. Truth hurts sometimes, but I suppose that would depend on what your definition of "truth" would be too. And with that, I am done with this thread.

Here's a better flounce macro for you, AC.

But as the old internet saying goes too, it's because of discussions like these "that we can't have nice things."

 

[HadleyH]

These are the only "Four " I've ever heard of they were Horsemen and Valentino played the lead!

 

[vitanola]

I have read enough about FDR to believe he was a Socialist. I know others who believe the same. And while I can't speak of members of the political ring in the Golden Age, I do know that there is a good number of Democrats currently "serving" that are Democratic Socialists. You can research this information yourself and see who it is. I have no problem admitting that I did not serve ten years in the military to watch this nation turn to Socialism. Truth hurts sometimes, but I suppose that would depend on what your definition of "truth" would be too. And with that, I am done with this thread.

I am truly sorry that you've taken such strong offense. I try to study period documentation, in mass, in preference to revisionist scholarship, whether by the likes of Howard Zinn or Burton Folsom, for both seem to do more than a little bending of history for the sake of political narrative. I never knew Professor Zinn,of course, but have had the acquaintence of Dr. Folsom.

If you are referring to Burt Folsom's book, well, note that when I questioned him about a couple of whoppers in it, one of which involved a faked quotation attributed to Henry Morganthau his reply was that "the story illustrated the truth, even if it was not strictly true."

You are right, "Truth hurts, sometimes."