Not to be political but.THIS IS WRONG

[Frunobulax]

Me too. That's a reproduction of an old Stetson ad from the 40s.



And no flags. Just bunting.

 

[HudsonHawk]

And no flags. Just bunting.

The bunting is upside down....but I suppose we can overlook that.

 

[sheeplady]

Well, I knew him over thirty years ago, when I was in my twenties and he was in his eighties. His name was Clarence Huzzey, and he was one of a group of sixty Jehovah's Witnesses distributing literature in Litchfield in the summer of 1940 when a mob of about 2000 people set upon them, wrecked their cars, burned their literature, beat them bloody, and then threw most of them in jail. Officials of the Litchfield American Legion, local police, and members of the local clergy were among the leaders of the mob. And all in the name of "patriotism" and "respect for the Flag."

Nice to know we had plenty of homegrown fascism.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Nice to know we had plenty of homegrown fascism.

That incident was one of a long list of similar mobbings of Witnesses during June of 1940, all over the country, all spurred by their refusal, on grounds of religious consicence, to salute the flag. On June 16th, the very night of the Litchfield mob action, Attorney General Francis Biddle went on the air in an emergency coast-to-coast broadcast to beg for the attacks to stop:

Jehovah's witnesses have been repeatedly set upon and beaten. They had committed no crime; but the mob adjudged they had, and meted out mob punishment. The Attorney General has ordered an immediate investigation of these outrages. The people must be alert and watchful, and above all cool and sane. Since mob violence will make the government's task infinitely more difficult, it will not be tolerated. We shall not defeat the Nazi evil by emulating its methods.

One Witness in the Litchfield incident was beaten so severely that he never fully recovered and died a short time later. As the mob was pounding and kicking him, a Legionnaire repeatedly shoved a flag into his face demanding that he kiss it. Despite the violence, and despite his injuries, he refused to comply. I'll take ten men like him any day of the week over a million phony "patriots."

 

[Michaelshane]

This started with a girl sitting on a flag.

 

[T Jones]

This started with a girl sitting on a flag.

Well, maybe she should have been sitting on a beach blanket instead.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Loving this country and honoring our Flag doesn't make me a racist and it doesn't make me a Neo Nazi or a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

Not at all. The point being made is that it's very easy and very common for that flag to be hijacked by all sorts of ideologies and used as a cudgel to beat those with whom they disagree, or to mask and justify all sorts of injustices. And not just in the past -- there are many things happening right now that dishonor the flag far more than a cheap advertisement. I've merely offered a few examples from both the past and the present. Waving a flag doesn't automatically make you a Klansman, but it also doesn't automatically make you an American. There wasn't a single American in that mob in Litchfield, no matter how many flags they carried.

I think all of us here ought to ask ourselves this question: had we been in that town on the night of June 16th 1940 -- or in any other of the more than three thousand towns in 45 of the 48 states where similar mob actions driven by the flag-salute issue occured during the summer of that year -- *what would we have done?*

 

[Feraud]

The not so subtle reference is duly noted. I'm a member on another site where we discuss and debate ideology and politics. Any mentioning of love for country and respect for the flag is met with an onslaught of vicious personal attacks and name calling by the intolerant and bigoted left wing members of that site. They're obsessed with equating patriotism and honoring the Flag to racism, Nazism and to being a Klan member. A favorite tactic of the left is to dig up incidences from the past, (incidences that happened before the most of us were even born or too young to remember), to somehow prove how wrong it is to love our country and to honor our Flag. Another favored tactic by the left wing members on that other site is to post pictures and memes of flag waving Nazis and Klan members to attack those they disagree with, just like the two pictures you posted. Loving this country and honoring our Flag doesn't make me a racist and it doesn't make me a Neo Nazi or a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

Understanding the context of a message or photo is important. LizzieMaine did not post that photo to demonstrate what people who appreciate our flag are like. She posted it in response to my comment about the bad things people do under the guise of patriotism.

She is no more implying the run of the mill flag wavers are fascists than implying "The Left" are commie sympathizers who should worship the flag or leave the country.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Understanding the context of a message or photo is important. LizzieMaine did not post that photo to demonstrate what people who appreciate our flag are like. She posted it in response to my comment about the bad things people do under the guise of patriotism.

She is no more implying the run of the mill flag wavers are fascists than implying "The Left" are commie sympathizers who should worship the flag or leave the country.

Precisely. I've never made any secret of my own leftiness around here, and one reason for that is to counteract the widespread perception that, despite our "no politics policy," the Lounge is a "right wing/conservative-oriented" forum. There are ideologies from all along the political spectrum represented among our members, from all over the world, and expecting lockstep agreement with a particular sectarian definition of "patriotism" ain't going to happen. There's no point in getting aggrieved about it.

 

[Michaelshane]

My mother and father would be surprised to know that liberals would come to a place where they thought patriotism was a bad thing.Its a good thing they died before that happened.They were liberal Democrats and there was no one in the world more flag loving and patriotic than my mother.

 

[LizzieMaine]

My mother and father would be surprised to know that liberals would come to a place where they thought patriotism was a bad thing.Its a good thing they died before that happened.They were liberal Democrats and there was no one in the world more flag loving and patriotic than my mother.

It sounds to me like you're concluding that your own particular definition of patriotism is the only valid form of patriotism. I don't agree.

I fly a flag myself, it might surprise you to know, a 48-star flag that was the flag under which the progressive movement of the 1930s won its greatest victories. But I never forget that it was also the flag carried by the scabs and finks and strikebreakers. I never forget that the flag itself can be used both for good and for evil, and its mere presence is no guarantee of a righteous cause.

 

[Frunobulax]

Precisely. I've never made any secret of my own leftiness around here, and one reason for that is to counteract the widespread perception that, despite our "no politics policy," the Lounge is a "right wing/conservative-oriented" forum. There are ideologies from all along the political spectrum represented among our members, from all over the world, and expecting lockstep agreement with a particular sectarian definition of "patriotism" ain't going to happen. There's no point in getting aggrieved about it.

Hi Lizzie. I appreciate your view, but a couple of observations:

Although I've only been on the Lounge for a few months, I never got the impression it was "conservative." I've seen many views on here, and the attenuated political discussions make many such views circumspect. That means, mostly, we are polite about how we present any social or political views. But I've never gotten a "right-wing vibe" from this place.

To T Jones' point: Unfortunately (at least for me), it seems that many political or social discussions that happen today, especially online, immediately run for the edges of the debate, abandoning all middle ground and killing any chance at meaningful discussion. To wit: posting images of extreme "patriotism" as a way of arguing the position. While not a straw man, to me it approaches that perilously close. As T Jones pointed out, on many sites, when discussing patriotism, etc., many on the left side of the spectrum immediately bring out these types of photos. The one that is used mostly is the one of the guy in Boston trying to impale some guy with a flag during a protest. The idea is to say, "Oh, I got yer patriotism right here!" when that is the furthest thing from the mind of the person you are discussing this with. To be fair, those on the right side of the spectrum tend to trot out some silly stuff, as well, and argue the fringes too. Blaming Obama for every ill is one example.

If we go through this thread, there are many examples (bad examples) shown of "patriotism," whether it's the above photo of the KKK member, or that guy a few pages back, comically dressed in stars and stripes. I don't think anybody here is arguing for that type of patriotism in a positive light.

Many of us have an opinion of what patriotism is. Heck, I like to put my flag out, and I like to wear patriotic clothing. Until I got too big (middle-aged spread), my favorite July 4th shirt had all of the historical flags on it surrounding the Pledge of Allegiance. And I wear my Captain America shirt pretty regularly. But nobody here is stumping for fanaticism. What the original post argued, and most have agreed with, was that the photo Stetson posted was disrespectful to a symbol that is respected by many. It's a symbol that has a great deal of meaning to many folks, especially those who have served under it. It seems to me Stetson was responsive to the concern. That makes me happy.

<snerk>

 

[LizzieMaine]

If we go through this thread, there are many examples (bad examples) shown of "patriotism," whether it's the above photo of the KKK member, or that guy a few pages back, comically dressed in stars and stripes. I don't think anybody here is arguing for that type of patriotism in a positive light.

As explained above, nobody's suggesting that anyone is suggesting that. My point in posting that photo was to demonstrate that there are far worse outrages against the flag going on every day than an advertisement. I'm glad the original poster got the response they wanted from the advertiser. Now let's work on taking the flag back from people who desecrate it in far more contemptible ways.

That Boston photo, by the way, is still a very raw wound to New Englanders. I lived thru that time, when those stories were on the front pages every day, and it pained me deeply, during a period where flag-waving Bicentennial hoo-hah was nearing its peak, to see that oppressors were still hiding behind the flag's folds. The shame I felt from that era very much shaped the views I hold today.

As far as the perceptions of the Lounge's ideology go, as a Bartender for almost nine years now, I'd like to have a nickel for every complaint I've gotten from members who do sense a certain slant. So there you are.

And as for Superman and the American Way, it saddens me that actor Bud Collyer, who played Superman on radio in the 1940s as a hero who stood against racial and religious oppression, took a leading role in efforts to purge "left wing elements" from the American Federation of Radio Artists in the early 1950s. He might have thought he was a patriot, but he wasn't one.

 

[Frunobulax]

As explained above, nobody's suggesting that anyone is suggesting that. My point in posting that photo was to demonstrate that there are far worse outrages against the flag going on every day than an advertisement. I'm glad the original poster got the response they wanted from the advertiser. Now let's work on taking the flag back from people who desecrate it in far more contemptible ways.

That Boston photo, by the way, is still a very raw wound to New Englanders. I lived thru that time, when those stories were on the front pages every day, and it pained me deeply, during a period where flag-waving Bicentennial hoo-hah was nearing its peak, to see that oppressors were still hiding behind the flag's folds. The shame I felt from that era very much shaped the views I hold today.

As far as the perceptions of the Lounge's ideology go, as a Bartender for almost nine years now, I'd like to have a nickel for every complaint I've gotten from members who do sense a certain slant. So there you are.

However, my point is that, by bringing those things into the discussion, you are taking the point to its extremes. Is somebody here defending that? Has somebody here posted such a photo and said that's the ideal? Not that I've seen. So I don't see the point of it, for this discussion.

There are alot of things that are raw for alot of folks. To focus on those is wrong, in my opinion. As you've said yourself, many good things have happened under the auspices of the flag and patriotism (things you think are good and I think are bad), why dwell on the horrible stuff? Why not promote the positive?

Personally, I didn't get on this site to argue, politically or otherwise. A good discussion, though, is welcome. Some are more sensitive than others and read politics into every little thing. Ain't got no time for that!

Thanks, take care...

 

[LizzieMaine]

However, my point is that, by bringing those things into the discussion, you are taking the point to its extremes. Is somebody here defending that? Has somebody here posted such a photo and said that's the ideal? Not that I've seen. So I don't see the point of it, for this discussion.

There are alot of things that are raw for alot of folks. To focus on those is wrong, in my opinion. As you've said yourself, many good things have happened under the auspices of the flag and patriotism (things you think are good and I think are bad), why dwell on the horrible stuff? Why not promote the positive?

Personally, I didn't get on this site to argue, politically or otherwise. A good discussion, though, is welcome. Some are more sensitive than others and read politics into every little thing. Ain't got no time for that!

Thanks, take care...

My point, quite frankly, is that any post that begins with "Not To Be Political, But..." is clearly intended to be political. All too often we get such posts, clearly intended to promote and appeal to a particular point of view, and then when someone challenges that view the response is "Ooooh, don't get political." Or "you don't agree with my particular definition of patriotism, therefore you're dwelling on the negative."

I believe that understanding and opposing the evils that have been perpetrated under the flag are an absolutely essential part of true patriotism, as opposed to phony chest-beating bumper sticker patriotism. I believe that all too often, the flag is used as a gag to silence dissent, something I consider far more offensive to "American ideals" than an ill-considered advertisement. A country founded by violent revolutionaries ought to have more self-awareness than that.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely stating my case.

 

[Mystic]

I wish that people would get as fired up about the U.S. Constitution as they do the flag.

 

[tonyb]

My point, quite frankly, is that any post that begins with "Not To Be Political, But..." is clearly intended to be political. All too often we get such posts, clearly intended to promote and appeal to a particular point of view, and then when someone challenges that view the response is "Ooooh, don't get political." Or "you don't agree with my particular definition of patriotism, therefore you're dwelling on the negative."

I believe that understanding and opposing the evils that have been perpetrated under the flag are an absolutely essential part of true patriotism, as opposed to phony chest-beating bumper sticker patriotism. I believe that all too often, the flag is used as a gag to silence dissent, something I consider far more offensive to "American ideals" than an ill-considered advertisement. A country founded by violent revolutionaries ought to have more self-awareness than that.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely stating my case.

Indeed. So far, we've kept a lid (almost) on this thread, but the direction some here would take us down pretty well illustrates the wisdom of the "ban" (such as it is) on "political" discussions.

Avoiding politics altogether ain't easy, of course. Politics bleeds into all aspects of our lives, which makes it nearly impossible to isolate it in a box labeled "do not open." Still, though, we try to make our way in a world of compromises and uncertainties. I suggest that if not for the ban, many regular contributors here would have been driven off long ago. My hat is off to those of all persuasions who resist the bait some folks just can't resist putting out.

 

[Frunobulax]

My point, quite frankly, is that any post that begins with "Not To Be Political, But..." is clearly intended to be political. All too often we get such posts, clearly intended to promote and appeal to a particular point of view, and then when someone challenges that view the response is "Ooooh, don't get political." Or "you don't agree with my particular definition of patriotism, therefore you're dwelling on the negative."

I believe that understanding and opposing the evils that have been perpetrated under the flag are an absolutely essential part of true patriotism, as opposed to phony chest-beating bumper sticker patriotism. I believe that all too often, the flag is used as a gag to silence dissent, something I consider far more offensive to "American ideals" than an ill-considered advertisement. A country founded by violent revolutionaries ought to have more self-awareness than that.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely stating my case.

I see that, but my reaction to your choice of points and method of presenting them is that you see more shame in our history and displays of patriotism than pride. This is something that divides the right and left. My perception may be off, but it's borne of observing your posts. Heck, you even went back and edited the previous post to turn a light-hearted jab about Superman into something serious that you're ashamed of. That's a way of dwelling on the negative that I guess I'll never really understand.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I see that, but my reaction to your choice of points and method of presenting them is that you see more shame in our history and displays of patriotism than pride. This is something that divides the right and left. My perception may be off, but it's borne of observing your posts. Heck, you even went back and edited the previous post to turn a light-hearted jab about Superman into something serious that you're ashamed of. That's a way of dwelling on the negative that I guess I'll never really understand.

I 've personally known people who were affected by what happened at New York AFRA in the fifties. I think, to honor their memory, it's very important not to forget what was done to them. I think there's a terrible, sad irony that Collyer, who had seemed to genuinely believe in the progressive elements of the character he played in the 1940s was blinded by "patriotism" into causing deep harm to people whose only crime was disagreeing with his political views. If that's "dwelling on the negative," then I'm sorry you don't understand it. Hopefully someday you will.

 

[Feraud]

My mother and father would be surprised to know that liberals would come to a place where they thought patriotism was a bad thing.Its a good thing they died before that happened.They were liberal Democrats and there was no one in the world more flag loving and patriotic than my mother.

I don’t see the general Liberal mentality equating patriotism as a bad thing.
What some have pointed out in this thread (and elsewhere) are examples of patriotism gone wrong. These are examples and not meant to describe a group.

Similar examples of Liberal extremism are always bandied about by the Conservative mentality to justify their behavior.