Need advice : What hat am I looking for?

[mayserwegener]

Steve, if it's marketing hype, and not a category (of which I interpret the above list falls under), then what is a Stratoliner, Playboy, Alessandria, Stetsonian, Dallas, etc? How would you differentiate among the large group of various tapers, brim widths/flanges, crown heights, etc?

I thought Fedora was the genus, and the individual style was the species. If we are to rack and stack them, what do you suggest?

As far as I know the term Fedora (men's hat) was only used in America up to WWII. The first use appears to by Knox the Hatter (of NYC) to introduce a Euro men's soft felt city dress hat style at the opening (early 1880s) of the play Fedora. Most men's hats described as Fedora up to WWII would resemble a Homburg (soft felt center crease (very important) with curled brim). There are exceptions though and over time (in to the 1920s and 1930s) the term was applied to soft felt snap brim hats without center creases. There are a couple of good threads here on the topic with more specific details. The hats you mentioned to me are based on Western / Cowboy style hats (specifically the crown form). Most early American soft felt city dress hats were based on European soft felt city dress hat styles.

I call them Soft Felt Hats. There are Soft and Stiff Felt hats.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

I thought Fedora was the genus, and the individual style was the species.

I think hat is the family, brimmed hats the genus & fedora the species...............there are sub-species but taxonomy is so subjective so we'll need DNA tests to prove any direct decendance from fedoras.

 

[guillaumeb]

Gee (from mobile)

 

[Frunobulax]

As far as I know the term Fedora (men's hat) was only used in America up to WWII. The first use appears to by Knox the Hatter (of NYC) to introduce a Euro men's soft felt city dress hat style at the opening (early 1880s) of the play Fedora. Most men's hats described as Fedora up to WWII would resemble a Homburg (soft felt center crease (very important) with curled brim). There are exceptions though and over time (in to the 1920s and 1930s) the term was applied to soft felt snap brim hats without center creases. There are a couple of good threads here on the topic with more specific details. The hats you mentioned to me are based on Western / Cowboy style hats (specifically the crown form). Most early American soft felt city dress hats were based on European soft felt city dress hat styles.

I call them Soft Felt Hats. There are Soft and Stiff Felt hats.

OK, that I like. However, Der Professor did post several months ago some evidence disputing the notion of the hat getting it's name from the stage play, which I thought was interesting.

Also, it seems that, if one were to agonize over this (like I apparently am), we could, at this point, start making our own designations. We are after all "The Foremost Authority," of hat/Fedora folks - myself excepted, of course(with apologies to Irwin Corey).

I think a Convention is in order. One of the orders of business shall be to establish and designate The Taxonomy of Hats.

 

[mayserwegener]

I believe the discussion was about pre WWII Fedora = curled brim, center crease, soft felt hat (my feeling is this was mostly the rule especially early on). I don't remember anything about disputing Knox the Hatter use of the name of the play Fedora (which was opening) to market his new European style men's dress hat.

Production wise the industry (World wide) broke it down into Soft and Stiff Felt hats. Also by Fur and Wool.

Side note:

I have never seen the use of the terms Fedora and Homburg in pre WWII German, Austrian, Italian and French hat trade newspapers or catalogs. The company PH. Möckel Hutfabrik, Homburg vor der Höhe that made the first Homburg style hat for Edward VII called all their felt hats (Soft and Stiff) Homburg hats.

 

[Michael R.]

I know this doesn't play into it , but a Hat and a Cap are two totally different things . They both cover your noggin , but a Bill Cap , Coon Skin Cap , Manchurian (trapper) , or Russian Fur Noggin warmer , or Toboggan (beanie , watch cap , knit cap , etc) are different , and a brimmed Hat , soft or stiff , Tail or low are Hats , and everything begins somewhere . The first Top Hat caused women to faint , but became the rage , it was a style . Western Hats served a purpose , as all Hats do , and needed to hold up under extreme conditions , keep the sun and rain off and out of their eyes , the head warm or cooler . A Bill Cap keeps the sun out of your eyes , and depending on what it's made of , the head warmer or cooler , but unless it has flaps for the ears , does nothing to protect anything from the sun other than the top of your noggin , forehead and cranium , the ears and neck fry , unless its a Deerstalker (covers the neck, some) , but still a Hunting Cap .

Wide brim or short brim , soft or stiff , high or low crown , Fur or Wool (yuck) Felt , or straw , depending on your needs are Hats , style designations : I.E. - Western , Fedora , Outback , Topper , or Derby (Bowler) , etc. . Then sub groups , I suppose . Boonies , Buckets , and others , too I guess , waxed canvas are hot , but survive the rain maybe more , but a good Fur Felt holds up great . Looking for a Traveler , I think of a Crusher , like a Rollable , Foldable Borsalino , or others , but I guess it depends on the type of Traveling you're doing , plane , train , automobile , bicycling , walking or hiking , and the weather .

 

[tropicalbob]

I thought the main discussion was about getting this guy a new hat.

 

[Michael R.]

I thought the main discussion was about getting this guy a new hat.

Sorta was , but side tracked (rabbit trails) . He should get whatever he likes .

 

[Lean'n'mean]

I thought the main discussion was about getting this guy a new hat.

It was, is...............we're just trying to narrow the field

 

[Michael R.]

At J&J Hat Center in NYC , all fur felts are 30% off thru 4/21 , just use code FEDORA at check out ... www.jjhatcenter.com

The Stetson Runabout Pro might be good ...

, or this ...

The Barnstormer (2" brim) ...

Nice looking Travel Lid .

 

[TheDane]

I believe hat style names differentiate between cultures. As I understand it, "Trilby" is/was a lot more used in Britain and Australia than in the US.

I also believe we're quite US-biased on the Lounge. The site is of US-origin - it's run by Americans - the American hat market is probably the biggest - the US is where most of the contemporary custom hatters reside - and the majority of members are Americans. I don't think, it's strange that we mainly use American hat lingo.

I never heard the term "Fedora" being used in Denmark. I learned that from the web. Here it's always been called "en blød hat" - as in "a soft hat". It's probably a good thing, we - more or less automatically - have chosen a common lingo ... Swahili, Hindi or American. It would be a mess, if we used our own local words. Most of you guys don't even have the "ø" on your keyboard ...

 

[moontheloon]

At J&J Hat Center in NYC , all fur felts are 30% off thru 4/21 , just use code FEDORA at check out ... www.jjhatcenter.com

The Stetson Runabout Pro might be good ...

, or this ...

The Barnstormer (2" brim) ...

Nice looking Travel Lid .

the Runabout is literally a piece of garbage ... don't do it

I owned one ... it basically reacted like cotton candy would in the rain

 

[Frunobulax]

I believe hat style names differentiate between cultures. As I understand it, "Trilby" is/was a lot more used in Britain and Australia than in the US.

I also believe we're quite US-biased on the Lounge. The site is of US-origin - it's run by Americans - the American hat market is probably the biggest - the US is where most of the contemporary custom hatters reside - and the majority of members are Americans. I don't think, it's strange that we mainly use American hat lingo.

I never heard the term "Fedora" being used in Denmark. I learned that from the web. Here it's always been called "en blød hat" - as in "a soft hat". It's probably a good thing, we - more or less automatically - have chosen a common lingo ... Swahili, Hindi or American. It would be a mess, if we used our own local words. Most of you guys don't even have the "ø" on your keyboard ...

Good point, Ole. Which lends support to Steve's "Soft" and "Stiff" designations, after all, he's a lot more versed in the European hat market, how the product is sold, and what type of terminology is used there. Whereas those of us stateside don't get exposed to that.

 

[TheDane]

Good point, Ole. Which lends support to Steve's "Soft" and "Stiff" designations, after all, he's a lot more versed in the European hat market, how the product is sold, and what type of terminology is used there. Whereas those of us stateside don't get exposed to that.

Absolutely, Fruno ... you are so right! Everybody here is important when it comes to discussing and digging out documentation (historical and contemporary) and facts on hat-making and -wearing. Though I must say, that Steve is in a league of his own!

I'm not forgetting Danielle, ofcoursemyhorse or any other more Euro-focused members, but without Steve's tons of contributions, TFL would be a very different forum. In my mind he's the guarantee for a diversity and broader perspective, we would sorely miss without him.

Although the old fencer sometimes gives in to the "bias-load" (and I admit to have been the annoying cause more than once), he has so generously "showered" us with invaluable information for years.

Not to dis any other members, but if I only had one "TFL Medal of Honor" to pin on somebody's chest, I would choose Steve's. Brad, Buler, Alan and a few others would come very close, but Steve and his contributions is such a rare case.

All IMHO, that is

 

[mayserwegener]

The general production terms Soft and Stiff Felt applied throughout the world. For example Stetson had Soft and Stiff Felt hat production departments same with Borsalino (language equivalent).

I tend to use production / industry terms but not always. For example I mostly use Stiff Felt and not Bowler, Derby, Melone, ect but I often use the term Homburg. I rarely use Fedora.

I have come across the term Homburg in the 1950s but not Fedora (this for the German / Austrian markets). You see Fedora used today but it's not as dominate as in America. Borsalino (as a general term) is also commonly used same with Trilby.

1950s Homburg Hat - The New Form

 

[Michael R.]

the Runabout is literally a piece of garbage ... don't do it

I owned one ... it basically reacted like cotton candy would in the rain

Boy ! I wasn't recommending the Runabout Pro , (comes in S , M , L , ... , cloth sweat I think) but just an example . Beginning (which gee may not be) many start with lesser quality hats . But even though 2" brims seem tiny to me , it was an example . But I wouldn't buy one , no cloth sweat unless a straw panama maybe . I see people in really crummy wool Hats , and I think if you laid down a few more bucks , even in lite-felt wool you would have a lot better hat . Thanks Moon ! If I start heading for a bad purchase , Please let me know . I want someone to tell me . I'm here to learn . Western Hats I pretty well know basic stuff , but soft dress hats I'm learning a lot . And need to learn a Bunch . A travel Hat can be a bunch of different styles , brim sizes , crown heights depending on his preferences . Good info though on the Runabout Pro , they look good , basically . I heard good things on the Barnstormer .

Good point, Ole. Which lends support to Steve's "Soft" and "Stiff" designations, after all, he's a lot more versed in the European hat market, how the product is sold, and what type of terminology is used there. Whereas those of us stateside don't get exposed to that.

And yeah Fruno , You know honestly , I knew what a Fedora was designated as , but growing up down here No one called a Soft Dress Hat a Fedora , either , it was tough (stiff) western , or Cowboy Hat/Work Hats if farming , Soft Dress Hats were the Sunday Hat (s) and were brand new , everyday city/town Hats were those that moved from Sunday Morning to after Church and everyday , because they were replaced by New Hats . No body called a Hat a Fedora , I guess it may have been a Big Northern City Thing , but not here . ... even with Bankers and Lawyers , etc. . Semantics .

 

[guillaumeb]

@Michael R well the Runabout Pro does look interesting, at least in terms of shape. In fine, for me, I believe the idea was to move away from trilbies. I started with the Akubra Hampton which is a bit bigger and higher.

i'm not a fan of wool as I prefer hats that can be worn under rainy days or any weather conditions. But then I guess it quickly becomes more expensive.

It's always a bit hard to understand what that hat should be made of. I understand that fur felt is mostly for winter, but I see some safari-like hat made of leather, like the Stetson Elkhart (out of stock), and i'm thinking : won't my brain just boil in this hat ?

For spring-summer,I have the feeling that we just can't get a hat that will stand in time. i mean even a Montecristi looks very fragile.

So well I bought a couple hat. I got the Vagabunden Traveller and the Radcliff to test out leather. I know it's not the original idea but really, it's difficult to make up one's mind. There's too much choice. i'm not specifically a Stetson's fan but it seems their brand is vast enough (and affordable enough) to give me choice despite having the greatest quality.

but then i guess i'm just a noob

 

[TheDane]

I understand that fur felt is mostly for winter, but I see some safari-like hat made of leather, like the Stetson Elkhart (out of stock), and i'm thinking : won't my brain just boil in this hat ?

You can wear fur felt all year around - especially here in Europe (can't see where in France you live).

I personally don't like leather hats. In my teens I dreamt of one. It would go great with suede, fringes, feathers, beads and other hippie attire. Aside from a hippie theme party I can't imagine on what occasion I would chose to wear a leather hat.

Montecristis may look fragile, but they are actually surprisingly strong. A good Monte will serve you half of your life. But of course no hats should be abused

 

[Frunobulax]

Boy ! I wasn't recommending the Runabout Pro , (comes in S , M , L , ... , cloth sweat I think) but just an example . Beginning (which gee may not be) many start with lesser quality hats . But even though 2" brims seem tiny to me , it was an example . But I wouldn't buy one , no cloth sweat unless a straw panama maybe . I see people in really crummy wool Hats , and I think if you laid down a few more bucks , even in lite-felt wool you would have a lot better hat . Thanks Moon ! If I start heading for a bad purchase , Please let me know . I want someone to tell me . I'm here to learn . Western Hats I pretty well know basic stuff , but soft dress hats I'm learning a lot . And need to learn a Bunch . A travel Hat can be a bunch of different styles , brim sizes , crown heights depending on his preferences . Good info though on the Runabout Pro , they look good , basically . I heard good things on the Barnstormer .



And yeah Fruno , You know honestly , I knew what a Fedora was designated as , but growing up down here No one called a Soft Dress Hat a Fedora , either , it was tough (stiff) western , or Cowboy Hat/Work Hats if farming , Soft Dress Hats were the Sunday Hat (s) and were brand new , everyday city/town Hats were those that moved from Sunday Morning to after Church and everyday , because they were replaced by New Hats . No body called a Hat a Fedora , I guess it may have been a Big Northern City Thing , but not here . ... even with Bankers and Lawyers , etc. . Semantics .

Fedoras weren't popular when I grew up, nor common to even the older members of my family. I can't recall ever even seeing a pic of a relative in one, and never my dad. So I guess we just called them "hats." My sister refers to my hats as "church hats."

The terminology I currently use I picked up here.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

My voice from Europe suggest you to see the Traclet site http://www.chapellerie-traclet.com/fr/185-achat-chapeau-homme
or, as someone before me, Melegari in Milan http://www.cappelleriamelegari.com/...&language=fr&zenid=lmqtii9a0so2mnprinvcbuftn5
You have also the opportunity to buy French hats on the used-vintage market.
Some producers of your country as Mossant, Flechet, Tirard. Antonin, Morreton, Thibet, Delion and others made super fine hats until the 70' and 80'.
I avoid the leather hats, but it is my personal taste and for the Stetson UE production.....sur ce chapitre, je garde bouche cousue