Name The Last Time There Was So Much Naked

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Half-dressed people: BOSTON REPORT

I work in an extremely busy and bustling area of Boston, especially crowded during lunch time. It's really nice out today - about 80, sunny, clear, not humid.

I am pleased to report that I saw probably 1,000 people in the past hour while walking around and *did not see a single exposed midriff, thong, or even too-short miniskirt or shorts*. I saw plenty of people who were obviously in business casual dress and on lunch break, but I also saw high school aged kids walking around in knee-length skirts and tee shirts, jeans and tee shirts long enough to cover all skin, and nice summer dresses. All races too, it's very mixed downtown.

Perhaps it's an indication of trend to come? Additionally more often than not people were of a normal weight, not heavy.

 

[RedPop4]

Very interesting conversation. Quigley, you're correct, too, about conversations wandering. On internet bbs it's considered by many to be bad form, but why is that? If we were sitting together having a cigar, a beverage and conversation, someone wouldn't sit there with a ruler and rap us about the knuckles for straying off-topic would they? No. But hey, back to the topic.lol lol lol

I believe most of you have mentioned all the factors that contribute to this issue, I tend to base it on the 1960's, throwing off the 'shackles' of convention and arbitrary rules of decorum or etiquette by that generation, the pornografication of society and the fashion industry, the LACK of choices available. Mix it all together with the "who the hell are you to tell me what to do?" that ALSO came about in the 1960's and 1970's...the "who are you to judge me?"

Anyone who dares utter a cross word against anyone else, whether for their own good or not is immediately shouted down and heaped with abuse.....and here we stand.

 

[Haversack]

This topic is sort of a braid of several topics woven together. There is the standard topic of dressing well and its popular demise. There is the topic of obesity in America. And there is the topic of nudity and where/whom it is appropriate for. It is this latter topic I would like to address.

Scotrace asked about why in the past 20-40 years nudity has become more acceptable whereas we publically covered up for centuries. I would have to say that this trend actually started back around the turn of the 20th Century. In centuries past as today, the ideal of beauty was influenced by those with wealth. If one was wealthy, you didn't have to work outdoors. Hence, you had pale skin. If you were poor, you had to work outdoors and were tanned and darker. Paleness was thusly desirable and a tan was derided. By around 1900 this began to change. Western populations became increasingly urban as opposed to rural. The Industrial Revolution had brought large masses of workers indoors and kept them there from dawn to dusk 6 1/2 days a week. Thus paleness began to loose its cachet. Conversely, athletic games became increasingly popular among those with leisure and clothing for those activities began making accomodations. Sunbathing became a way to mark oneself as "not poor". By the mid-20th C., a healty tan had became one of the marks of beauty, (and wealth). This view probably reached it high water mark around 1980 when the cuumulative effects of 30-40 years of sun bathing began to be noticed. The current view appears to be in transition but in which direction? A tan is still appreciated but skin cancer and wrinkles are a Damoclesian Sword. (Note: The Pale = Wealth & Beauty/Dark = Poor & Ugly never disappeared in many parts of the world, notably East Asia. Consider the popularity of parasols in Taiwan.)

Now, coupled with this one shift in the concept of beauty, the ideas of nature, health and physical activity also began to be woven together around the turn of the 20th C. The idealization of physical exercise in a natural outdoor setting combined with a healthy diet as the prescription for peoples' ills was initially was the province of cults and cranks. As this same time period was also an era of scientific rationalization, the benefits of such a regimine became recognized by the medical, scientific, and political communities and incorporated to a greater or lesser degree into the sanitary movement. (which also espoused short hair and shaved faces for men.) Two of the ideas of this healthy body movement were that the natural body was itself healthy and that physical activity should be unimpeded. This gave rise to the idea that outdoor nakedness was healthy. Thereby, the modern nudist movement was created. It was in Germany and the Scandinavian countries particulalry in which "naturalism" had (and has) the largest acceptance. It was seen as both natural and healthy, and scientific and modern. Because this was so, shame and sexualization began to be conceptually separated from nakedness to a greater or lesser degree. Because nudity was not automatically associated solely with sexual attraction, and because "it is good for you", acceptable nudity is not restricted solely to the young and fit. (Naturalism in the US also goes back to the turn of the 20th C. and was most commonly found in areas with substantial German and Scandinavian population. Because it did not gain approval from the medical community, and faced extensive disfavor from the religous, naturalism never became popularly acceptable. We thereby pretty much make the association that nudity=sex and/or shame. From this, we also get the belief that nudity by a "beautiful" person is much more acceptable than nudity by an "ugly" person.) In western countries in which nudity has acceptance, there is still a proper time, place and activity for it. It is just sometimes dressing appropriately means no clothing. Sauna, swimming, and sunbathing all fall into this catagory in the same way that tennis or cricket whites are the appropriate dress for those activities. Conversely, if nudity or revealing clothes are the appropriate dress for sauna, swimming, and sunbathing, should these activities be restricted to the young, attractive, and fit?

Haversack, (w/ apologies for the length.)

 

[jake_fink]

In the park this evening, watching the people while my children played.
There was so much... skin. And several thoughts kind of came together for me.
To restate the obvious: Americans are fat. In the park, finding thin or even acceptably trim examples of our species was a challenge. I made it a little game and spotted three (ruling out teenagers), out of hundreds.
And still, there was all this exposed skin. Halter tops, short shorts, bare legs, bare muffin tops spilling over hiphuggers, tube tops, tank tops, etc. And those were the folks off the AARP bus.
You know, nude beaches are populated by people who should not be nude on a beach. The same is so off the beach. Why do so many people show off so much skin when they'd be better off to cover it up?
I'm thinking, and this is my point of curiosity, that both men and women, for century piled on century, covered it up. A woman with a less-than-perfect figure, in a long dress or gown, with a tuck here, a dart there, some pleats or a bit of padding, could appear to be darn near perfect and no one need be the wiser. Even men were expected to cover all but their faces and, in certain circumstances, their hands. Why did we give that up in favor of showing off all the wobbly bits? Instead of wondering what a woman may look like without her chemise, we just look on, aghast.
So I'm looking for your thoughts. Has there ever been a time, since, say, the time of the Greeks and Romans, when it was the norm for the populace of a Western culture to go about half naked? And why do we do so now? Why do we so willingly display our unattractive flaws (which we all have)?
This is, by the way, not meant to offend those of us who carry extra pounds. That's not the point. At 43, I would like to shed a few. But I'm not going to show you my wobbly bits unless we are intimately involved.

I'm reading that last bit as an invitation. You seem like a fine chap. Will you buy me dinner first?

 

[Story]

What was that about sleek Europeans?

Americans are fat but Europeans are fatter, experts find
The Associated Press
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 03.16.2005
advertisement
BRUSSELS, Belgium - At least seven European countries now challenge the United States in size - at least around the waistline. :essen:
In a group of nations from Greece to Germany, the proportion of overweight or obese men is higher than in the United States, experts said Tuesday in a major analysis of expanding girth on the European continent.
"The time when obesity was thought to be a problem on the other side of the Atlantic has gone by," said Mars Di Bartolomeo, Luxembourg's minister of health.

more at -
http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/news/65864.php

 

[herringbonekid]

and i thought we were all meant to be starving ourselves to try and look like thin fashion models in magazines... what happened to THAT phenomenon ?

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

I simply couldn't quickly find any pictures of well-dressed plump people, or poorly dressed skinny ones. Convenience.

 

[katiemakeup]

I always wonder when I see older people...what they think when they see younger people wearing jeans or sweats...or the skimpy clothing that you are talking about... do they think "what happened?" or, "only burlesque dancers used to wear that, now they wear it out to dinner!" You know? How strange is it to grow up wearing suits, dressing for dinner etc... and you watch the world morph to such a lax attitude towards attire and grooming.

 

[scotrace]

God Bless you sir, you are a very fine looking gentleman.

 

[scotrace]

I'm reading that last bit as an invitation. You seem like a fine chap. Will you buy me dinner first?

With that avatar? You bet!:eusa_clap

 

[Steve]

I don't see this mode of dress too often around the town parks and such, but one place I hate is the malls. It's hard to decide where to look. On the one hand, there are the hyper-sexualized Victoria's Secret ads featuring women with ugly faces in provactive poses, and on the other side of the aisle are EXTREMELY corpulent women in shirts and pants that look like they could be painted on.

Something that really shocked me (a hard thing to do) the other day was when I was walking to Old Navy to get a pair of jeans. Before you rib me about that place, it's the only store in town that has pants to accomodate my wrestler-size thighs. But I digress. Anyway, outside the mall doors two fat girls in the aforementioned attire were straddling each other and rolling around screaming on the pavement outside the mall doors. If that doesn't say how far we've sunk, I don't know what does.

 

[TommySalieri]

I read an article about 2 or 3 years ago on modest clothing. It made headline news.

Apparently, conversative clothing has been making a comeback since then. According to the article, some teens and young adults have been slowly rejecting the "sluttyness" of today's fashions. I wish I could find the source again... I think women are starting to realize that dressing like a whore can only get you so far.

 

[KAT]

you guys get offendended by "skin"
you want other people to accept your style so why is it so hard to accept theirs. doesnt matter how they walk around!we all know its sloppy and not pretty and we all wish they would dress nicer! style is just not something everybody has! Im just asking myself right now who the "ignorant ones" are ? most americans are religious people and doesnt the bible say that god created us that way? he never gave us clothes! not even a pretty 40s dress!
you even get offended by ice cream!!! and paper towels!!!! ..
end of story for me.

 

[Viola]

Apparently, conversative clothing has been making a comeback since then. According to the article, some teens and young adults have been slowly rejecting the "sluttyness" of today's fashions. I wish I could find the source again... I think women are starting to realize that dressing like a whore can only get you so far.

For what it's worth, which may not be much, supposedly crop-tops and exposed midriffs are on their way out.

Hurrah, say I! Because even if you look all right standing up in those clothes, it is deucedly hard to not look pudgy if you dare to sit down.

 

[ProperRogue]

you guys get offendended by "skin"
you want other people to accept your style so why is it so hard to accept theirs. doesnt matter how they walk around!we all know its sloppy and not pretty and we all wish they would dress nicer! style is just not something everybody has! Im just asking myself right now who the "ignorant ones" are ? most americans are religious people and doesnt the bible say that god created us that way? he never gave us clothes! not even a pretty 40s dress!
you even get offended by grrrr! Ice cream!!! And paper towels I say!!..
end of story for me

In a sense you are correct that we (I mean American) have a hard time accepting others, both within our borders and outside our borders. I personally think it is because of two things. First, we do do not have the history of so many other cultures around the world; we are still trying to define how we fit in and who we want to be when we "grow up." We still have a lot to learn about ourselves and others, along with how to be more accepting. Second, it is a protectionist response to to us being judged ourselves, something most Americans are very worried about. You end up with people who want nothing more then to belong but fear being rejected who manifest that fear in their judgement of others. Just my opinion.

Though I do not necessarily agree with the way some people dress, I respect and would protect their right to do so. But I can also appreciate the beauty and art of the nude human body, the same way I can appreciate the beauty of deep jazz composition. It is in allowing and appreciating the beauty in all things.

By the way...Love the terminology! lol ICE CREAM!!!! and PAPER TOWELS!!!!!?!?!?!? lol I don't think I ever heard those terms the whole time I was in Germany. I can't even think what that would be in german. Now I know what to tell my kids it is called in german. Thanks for making me smile!

 

[Rosie]

:eusa_clap (I don't think I need to add anything more.)

you guys get offendended by "skin"
you want other people to accept your style so why is it so hard to accept theirs. doesnt matter how they walk around!we all know its sloppy and not pretty and we all wish they would dress nicer! style is just not something everybody has! Im just asking myself right now who the "ignorant ones" are ? most americans are religious people and doesnt the bible say that god created us that way? he never gave us clothes! not even a pretty 40s dress!
you even get offended by ice cream!!! and paper towels!!!! ..
end of story for me.

:eusa_clap (well put Kat)

 

[Tourbillion]

This is an interesting discussion. It is not like I really want to see people naked (the opposite in fact).

But... lets take the long view of this, when did people start wearing so many clothes? I can understand when it is cold out, but when it's 90 degrees out why do we wear more than a loincloth? (and yes I've read Genesis, so I know that people were ashamed, etc)

Here's how people dressed a few thousand years ago:

Before the Egyptians and other early people started weaving linen, probably no one wore much of anything when it was warm, and only a few furs when it was cold. Although I've heard that the weather was better before the ice age.

With global warming and all, is it possible that clothes might disappear altogether?

p.s. just kidding

 

[Steve]

you guys get offendended by "skin"
you want other people to accept your style so why is it so hard to accept theirs. doesnt matter how they walk around!we all know its sloppy and not pretty and we all wish they would dress nicer! style is just not something everybody has! Im just asking myself right now who the "ignorant ones" are ? most americans are religious people and doesnt the bible say that god created us that way? he never gave us clothes! not even a pretty 40s dress!
you even get offended by ice cream!!! and paper towels!!!! ..
end of story for me.

I agree with your sentiments. I only take offense as to certain contexts in which the body is displayed.

 

[Senator Jack]

You want me to come out and say it? All right. Yeah, I'm offended.

Here it is creeping into a New York summer, and every time I step out my door, I'm looking at ugly feet in flip-flops. I'm looking at hairy armpits and stretch marks and blisters and goiters and bunions and all sorts of growths that are clogging up the line at the post office. I've written about this before, so I won't go on about it, but if people are allowed to be offended by mere words, epithets, then I should have the right to be offended by image.

If we're going to have this lassaiz faire attitude for modesty, then I believe the same should be held for everything else. Let people use offensive language wherever they want. Let them hate whomever they want, for after all, who is anyone to judge about anything? Let's not rail against the KKK or the Aryan Nations, because who the hell are we to tell people that we're offended?

Yeah, all right, I'm an average jerk with the average eye for beauty, and I'm not going to complain about the chick (yeah, that's right chick - are you offended?) who's got the goods to stuff a bikini, even if she were walking down 5th Avenue at high noon. But if she's going to come to any dinner party I'm going to throw, she better wear a dress. Well, at least during dinner.

Regards, an irascible, peevish, choleric (take yer pick)

Senator Jack

 

[scotrace]

I can understand when it is cold out, but when it's 90 degrees out why do we wear more than a loincloth?

Great question!!!

An answer found here:

Morris tells us that we began to cover ourselves to avoid sending unintended signals to the opposite sex. To prevent social chaos.