My first Ebay hat!

[MKL]

dhermann1,

Looks like a great hat and buy. Enjoy it.

 

[deanglen]

but remember wood blocks are organic.

Regards,

J

Oh stop...you're killing melol lol !

dean

 

[J.T.Marcus]

The side dent in that bottom hat illustration points out something I've noticed in genuine vintage hats. The modern hats look so caved in smoothly, and the vintage hats have that, I'm not sure how to describe it, uneven, or irregular transition around the edges of the bash, be it the top or sides, that make them look like crushed paper, not felt. Does this mean the felt was very soft, very thin, or both?

dean

Dean, You and I are in a business where we have learned that questions sometimes have multiple answers. That's also the case, here. You have hit on two of the answers. Another is, that's how guys wanted their hats to look. It was considered proof that you had gone to the trouble of shaping it yourself, instead of buying it perfectly shaped from the factory. The same reasoning said that when wearing a bow tie, it should be crooked instead of straight, so people would know (or at least think) you had tied it yourself. That covers three reasons; there could well be others!

 

[deanglen]

Dean, You and I are in a business where we have learned that questions sometimes have multiple answers. That's also the case, here. You have hit on two of the answers. Another is, that's how guys wanted their hats to look. It was considered proof that you had gone to the trouble of shaping it yourself, instead of buying it perfectly shaped from the factory. The same reasoning said that when wearing a bow tie, it should be crooked instead of straight, so people would know (or at least think) you had tied it yourself. That covers three reasons; there could well be others!

Ah, yes. Probably why I prefer shaping the hat myself. Those pre-shaped, blocked to perfection hats have a strange look to me. Open crowned is the way I would want all my hats I could experiment. Another point I was trying to make is not just that the hats were asymmetrical, but the bashes seem to give a strange quality to the felt, again the best I can liken it to is a felt hat that looked dented like it was paper. Like this from JP's ad:

dean

 

[jeff]

I suspect it was a combination of things:

1. They're worn every day, and naturally get abused and hence they have a less than pristine look. Modern equivalent: a mechanics naturally worn/torn/dirty jeans.

2. When things become commonplace, people often stop thinking about them altogether and use them just for their function. Modern equivalent: sneakers as everyday shoes in the officeplace.

3. The "abused" look as fashion. Modern equivalent: intentionally distressed jeans (pre-washed, stone washed, shredded, etc).

 

[MKL]

Dean,

Well, it is a fine shape in the hat in your avatar. Very nice.

 

[MKL]

Jeff,

Where in Kansas are you located?

 

[jeff]

Jeff,

Where in Kansas are you located?

Iola - I'm probably about 100 miles due south of you.

We're recent transplants - I was born, grew up, and worked for 20 years in the San Francisco Bay Area. We decided to try out the small-town life, bought some acreage, and are slowly acquiring a herd of random animals .

Our Home on the Range.

 

[MKL]

Iola - I'm probably about 100 miles due south of you.

We're recent transplants - I was born, grew up, and worked for 20 years in the San Francisco Bay Area. We decided to try out the small-town life, bought some acreage, and are slowly acquiring a herd of random animals .

Our Home on the Range.

Yep, that looks like southeast Kansas. I have been through there many times. Welcome to Kansas!

 

[deanglen]

Thanks, MKL. I'm just not saying what I'm trying to say, very well. I'll try again, and then I'll let it go. Here goes: The characterisics of the bash, as the edit from the ad shows, have been impossible for me to reproduce with any hat I've owned. The felt is literally doing things I have not seen a hat owned by me or anyone else do. Am I the only on who sees it? I must be losing my mind. Those side dents are not just aesthetically different, they are materially different, and photographs like the ones I linked to in Marc's terrific thread are different, too. I'm suspecting that I'm seeing soemthing here that perhaps I'm overstating.

Consider the side dents on the guy in this picture, on the far right. I haven't seen dents like that in any of the vintage hats pictured by Loungers. They have puckered, rumpled edges, not the nice smooth dish shapes you see on the vintage hats posted here like the ones owned by Douglas, Dinerman, or Marc, to name a few.

From this point, I'm done. It's really perhaps a matter of subjective perception.

dean

 

[MKL]

Dean,

I think you are making sense. I know what you were saying and I would agree you don't see that kind of bash today. I was just commenting on how nice your hat looked in your avatar. It is really a nice looking hat - bash and all! lol

 

[deanglen]

Dean,

I think you are making sense. I know what you were saying and I would agree you don't see that kind of bash today. I was just commenting on how nice your hat looked in your avatar. It is really a nice looking hat - bash and all! lol

Understood. And thanks again for the kind words. I was just using your quote as a springboard to see if anyone could tell me how in the world they got their hats to look that way, because I like it. It looks more 'vintage' to me, in spite of the fact that the guy on the far left in the photo has nice smooth side dents they are almost universally seen. Contrasting the two hats illustrates what I see as very different. Dewey in the middle doesn't count, he's got a homburg: no dents.

dean

 

[MKL]

Dean,

Yes, I would like to know that too. I like that look. I have one that comes very close to it. The felt is very soft and it kind of gives it that look. It was actually some old Stetson that I sent to Art to rebuild. He did a great job on the hat.

Those hats in the pics look very light. Perhaps that is a key to it.

 

[deanglen]

Just had a thought, MKL. Could it be a significantly low amount of stiffener in the crown, in addition to lighter felt. Would that cause it? I have a Dobbs that is very soft in the crown and brim, but it still doesn't do those dimply side dents. To me, it' still a mystery. And I was going to let this go three posts ago.

dean

 

[barrowjh]

The Disney is a fine looking hat. I've found that hats with a 4 1/2" crown bashed down into a deep C crown just do not work for me - my head demands more 'head room' so I have to steam and rebash them out higher, maybe a 4 point or a center-dent. On the less-recognized names, with 2 1/4 brim or smaller, ebay competition can be weak, resulting in a very nice hat at a reasonable price.

As to the crinkle dents, the only hat I have that comes close to acting that way is a Borsalino OR clone bought from chapeauxboy #130137463363. The felt is really thin and lightweight, and sometimes acts like paper. It has its drawbacks - the bash can change while you are pulling in on, or even the slightest bump into something.

 

[deanglen]

Thanks to MKL directing me to a shot of Marc Chevalier's hat in the What Hat Are You Wearing Today thread, and including Barrowjh' comments, I conclude it's the effect of a low stiffener content to the felt. My OR in my avatar is a 3X but did not do what Marc's 3X is doing. I suspected it was lack of stiffener, and of course, thin felt. Now I'm done with this. Really. I mean it. Done. Finito.

dean

 

[J.T.Marcus]

deanglen, Yes, I see what you're talking about. I like barrowjh's term "crinkle dents." I just checked my collection, and found several pieces which exhibit that effect, at least to some extent. My Borsalino is more inclined to show it, but I have a thicker and stiffer fur which also does it. Like most of us here, I try to work the "crinkles" out, when they do show up. A previous generation didn't try so hard. The crinkles also show up more in harsh lighting. Your photo (black and white of 3 distinguished gents) was taken under direct sunlight with off-camera fill flash (5 or press 25 flash bulb, or bigger). This creates shadows and brings out detail. The Disney ad is an illustration (print from a painting, not a photo). The illustrator showed the hat as the owner would expect it to look, not when he walked out of the shop but when he'd had it for a while.

One word of encouragement. If you want that look, you're talented enough to achieve it. Hang in there, and keep trying!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Another point I was trying to make is not just that the hats were asymmetrical, but the bashes seem to give a strange quality to the felt, again the best I can liken it to is a felt hat that looked dented like it was paper. Like this from JP's ad:

And here's yet another example:

.

 

[deanglen]

Thanks, Marc, that's exactly the look I'd like to reproduce. Seems rare on the hats posted in the Lounge.

dean

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Hi Dean,

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the vintage hats we have are 50-70 years old. The felt when it was first felted and made into a hat may have had very different qualities to what we hold in our hands.

I recall some talk of the "ageing" of felt, and this being a reason old felt is aesthetically more pleasing than the majority (totality?) of modern made mass-market felt hats.

Could it be that we actually (except in the very rarest vintage hat) cannot create these 'imperfect' creases. [huh]

bk