Most important freedom

[Barry]

I just got the feeling it was heading in a bad direction, MK, that's all.

Barry

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Interesting Observation....

... sovereign citizen movements, the militas, the "constitutionalists," and the tax protest movement at a number of sites

You might draw the same conclusions as I do.
There's not much to wonder about, really?
Two words might summarize my motivation here: Oklahoma City.
Barry

Oklahoma City!!!???? What?... No! Lexington. Concord. Bunker Hill is a much better analogy. It is a fascinating thing about Freedom and Liberty and the Constitution that WE established to protect it; some of the very people who enjoy the relative peace and freedom that we experience in a Constitutional Republic would be the first to advocate distroying it. To what end, I would ask? If not Freedom, Liberty, self-responsibilty and Rule of Law, then what? By what name would one call any alternative but Tyranny? (Authoritarianism?, Totalitariansim? Statism?...)

I always wonder about the motives of those who would rail against the very essence of Liberty; What feathers their bed? Who pays them? What is their objective? What is purpose of attempting to discredit and undermine those whose purpose is that of the Founding Fathers of this Constitutional Republic? Why in the world.....?

It is easy to see why our society is in such a state of disarray. There are those amongst us who call themselves Americans who know not what it even means. Those whose expedient wants, needs and desires are more important to them then the underlying philosophical foundational principles that make the fullfilment of those needs possible. Those who would kill the Golden Goose just to have control over egg production.

I am so glad I have done my schoolwork outside the government school system and certainly outside the 'beltway'! lol

-Dixon Cannon
Neo-Jeffersonian Constitutional Fundamentalist

 

[Lincsong]

The First Admendmant is the lynchpin amendment; primarlily because of the clause that reads..."and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

Without the ability to petition the government for redress of grievances, all other freedoms and rights are moot. Our ability - our Right - to petititon our goverment to change and to correct it's wrong is the lost right! Yet, it is that Right that is the magic bullet to restore our Liberty by telling our Servant government that WE are in charge and that it is WE who tell our government what to do - not vis-versa.

We all need to know more about our Constitutional Liberties and why we have them!

-dixon cannon

I like that sentence; ""without the ability to petition the government for redress of grievances, all other freedoms and rights are moot" and the last assertion: "that is the the magic bullet to resore our Liberty by thelling our Servant government that We are in charge and that it is WE who tell our government what to do - no vis(a)-versa"

I know from personal experiences how local political machine hacks and neo-fascists operate. In San Leandro, CA a city next door to Oakland about 6 years ago a group of citizens petitioned the City Council to repeal a Real Property Transfer Tax that is levied on the seller of Real Estate within the City Limits. The City Council refused. So the citizens followed the next legal path and started a petition to place the repeal on the ballot. When the ballot measure qualified for the ballot the City Clerk attempted to derail it on a trumped up technicality. However, their childish pranks didn't work and it made it to the ballot.
Well, that's when all hell broke loose; "how dare the people attempt to take away "the city's money". The City Council mobilized any and all people who feed off tax money; The Firemen and Police were called out to make phone calls and knock on doors, Sheriff Charlie Plummer and his sidekick Bob Maginnis stormed into town to intimidate elderly voters with scare tactics of how crime was going to skyrocket without this needed $1.5 million, libraries were going to close, widows and children would starve. It was Armageddon! The City Attorney's office was turned into a boiler room operation so sleezey that even the most slithering snake Long Island call center would blush.:rage:

I can go on and on. But to this day I have very little respect for Sheriff Charlier Plummer, Bob Maginnis, the Alameda County Sheriffs Dept. and Fire Departments and the San Leandro Police Department.:rage:

And guess what? Days after the defeat (which was also the November 2000 elections) the City Council gave all City employees a massive pay raise.:rage:

 

[Barry]

Those whose expedient wants, needs and desires are more important them then the underlying philosophical foundational principles that make the fullfilment of those needs possible. Those who would kill the Golden Goose just to have control over egg production.

Well, well. Sorry, Dixon. "Tax Protesters" are all about "me me me." That's why they create dozens and dozens of bad legal arguments to support the cause. "The Law that Never Was!" Hah!

I am so glad I have done my schoolwork outside the government school system and certainly outside the 'beltway'! lol

Nice...

Dixon, by the way, Cato is here in DC. Ever been? I have. A former mentor and good friend of mine received an award there several years ago .

Barry

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Wow!

Well, well. Sorry, Dixon. "Tax Protesters" are all about "me me me." That's why they create dozens and dozens of bad legal arguments to support the cause. "The Law that Never Was!" Hah!
Nice...

Dixon, by the way, Cato is here in DC. Ever been? I have. A former mentor and good friend of mine received an award there several years ago .

Barry

That almost rang of personal attack! You put my name in there twice! Not once in any post that I've made have I mentioned the term "Tax Protester". Who's protesting a tax here??? Any individual who earned their daily bread is ENTITLED to think "me, me, me!"; it's THEIR property - they earned it - they own it! No other person is empowered to take it from them against their will, either pesonally or through their 'agent' (or gang!). No 'law' authorizes theft! The 'color of law' is theft - by deception!

This thread is about FREEDOM - cherished freedom! Freedom requires Rule of Law. The Rule of Law is about clearly written, easily understood rules and laws that prevent theft, deception and outright fraud. Any other subversions of law are repugnant to the Constitution. It is Mendacity, big daddy!

I advocate TAX HONESTY! Nothin' wrong with that.

-Dixon Cannon
Neo-Jeffersonian Constitutional Fundamentalist

 

[Pilgrim]

Hear, hear.

I just cannot comprehend how my hard earned money is being carelessly spent on these programs.

And I cannot comprehend how my money - and the money of my children - is being spent on a war in Iraq that we should naver have created. All social service spending is peanuts next to the massive budget deficit incurred in Iraq.

 

[Viola]

Well, well. Sorry, Dixon. "Tax Protesters" are all about "me me me." That's why they create dozens and dozens of bad legal arguments to support the cause. "The Law that Never Was!" Hah!

Pardon me, Dixon, I'm cutting in! lol

So, to say that the government is using the vast majority of tax money wastefully, for poorly thought-out causes, and in some cases outright immorally, is selfish? I don't make enough money for it to be all about ME!

I'm thinking of every working class and middle-class family that could spend and invest their money much more wisely themselves than Big Brother has managed to do for them. Its rather elitest to say that Joe Schmoe can't figure out what to do with the bulk of his own paycheck, isn't it?

 

[scotrace]

Back to topic

The topic is Most Important Freedom.

That's enough name calling. Let's cool off a bit as I would prefer to leave this open. Posts with insults directed at other members have been removed.

 

[MK]

.

Wow. It didn't take but a few hours for this to take a turn South....right after I said it was civil too.



I think Barry has a crystal ball.

 

[TommySalieri]

Hey, Barry. How about telling me next week's lottery numbers, eh?

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Before it gets shut down, I'd like to thank Magneto and Viola for restoring my faith.

 

[Lincsong]

Why is it that when I start having fun with a thread someone wants to shut it down? I happen to enjoy intellectual stimulation.

 

[Pilgrim]

My dialogs with Lincsong are an illustration of the freedom that i think comes first, and is most important - freedom of expression.

From this freedom logically come many others - freedom of assembly, freedom of (and from) religion, and many others.

When people can speak - and express themselves - and not fear reprisal - they have achieved the first, most important step toward freedom.

 

[MK]

.

....and at The Fedora Lounge, members are free from being personally attacked for their opinion.

If people can keep their cool and not get emotionally involved by taking shots at member for their opinions...we can keep this thread going.

 

[Barry]

Pardon me, Dixon, I'm cutting in! lol

So, to say that the government is using the vast majority of tax money wastefully, for poorly thought-out causes, and in some cases outright immorally, is selfish? I don't make enough money for it to be all about ME!

I saw a link in this thread. I clicked it and the website presented a book and also linked to at least one "tax denier/protester/whatever" organization. I've posted my links as a response. People can take it for what it is worth.

When I refer to "tax protester" movements I am referring to groups of individuals who believe that the law is constitutionally invalid or if it is valid it does not apply to them. They believe this for a variety of reasons which have never been accepted. That's why I said it's all about "me, me, me."

Barry

 

[Dixon Cannon]

And of course...

I saw a link in this thread. I clicked it and the website presented a book and also linked to at least one "tax denier/protester/whatever" organization. I've posted my links as a response. People can take it for what it is worth.

When I refer to "tax protester" movements I am referring to groups of individuals who believe that the law is constitutionally invalid or if it is valid it does not apply to them. They believe this for a variety of reasons which have never been accepted. That's why I said it's all about "me, me, me."

Barry

This observation is an incorrect assumption. Once again, it's about the LAW, LAW, LAW! Which of course is intended to preserve your FREEDOM, FREEDOM, FREEDOM!.. Not defraud, cheat, and decieve you.

Freedom is not comprised of restrictions on Liberty. That's basic.

-dixon cannon

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Indoubtably!

The topic is Most Important Freedom.

Here are a couple of website URL's that do a far better job than I at explaining the importance of Freedom. I'm a High School 'push-out' who was taught by government employees - not a particularly good environment for learning about Liberty I discovered.

http://www.fff.org/

http://www.fee.org/

http://www.mises.org/

-dixon cannon

 

[carebear]

Given reality I can accept the Federal income tax for now. We as a people have let the government (cough FDR cough) get too much unConstitutional responsibility under its wing to dismantle the whole thing at once.

What gets me is the paternalistic arrogance of Social Security remaining mandatory. I could make better money on that 12% of my tax burden than any govt. savings account can imagine. The fact that some folks can't manage their money shouldn't force me and other competent money managers into a worst case investment option. Of course, letting folks opt out (I'd even leave the stolen money they've got of mine behind if I could opt out as of now) would bankrupt the welfare state until we got those other paternalistic nanny-state programs under control.

As far as most important freedom? I'm with Viola and a few others. The Bill of Rights is in no particular order (the Framers meant none as "most important") but all of the others ultimately rest on the ability of the People to actively redress their grievances if necessary. That's the same right that created our freedoms, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

Also, the existance of an armed populace, even not actively fomenting active resistance, stands as a warning to those who "want what's best for us" to keep their grubby hands to themselves. It best operates as what it was intended for, a deterrant to tyranny. There's already one example on the books of what an armed American populace can do to those who would trample their freedoms.*

As the saying goes, an American can resort to 3 boxes to defend their freedom: the soap box, the ballot box and, only if horribly necessary and always last, the ammunition box.








*Yes, my British friends, I know that we were really just whining about paying our share of the tax bill for the French and Indian War, but we should at least have had the ability to vote against it in Parliment.

 

[magneto]

Before it gets shut down, I'd like to thank Magneto and Viola for restoring my faith.

You're very welcome sir!

 

[jazzbass]

The right to keep and bear arms; it protects your life and liberty, and with it you can defend your freedom of speech and freedom of religion as well as freedom from excessive or tyrannical government.

I think if you try to defend your First amendment rights with your Second amendment rights they'll put you in jail.

jazzbass