Morning dress

[Noble Savage]

Yes, I am fully aware that Sator is a doctor (I do not write a lot but I have been reading for years). I just tried to find some rationale for his recent attitude.

Greetings!

After I posted several images of current evening and morning dress, I was removed from that so-called tailors' forum. I was not amused.

By way of explanation, it must be stated that Sator wrote recently that his new lady love does not approve of him wearing any of the fancy clothes he formerly coveted. Perhaps there lies the reason for his change of heart.

As noted by Phileas Fogg, Sator's interest in clothes does not come from any sort of fitting in with any social set, nor is it the product of youth, but is a peculiar hobby. We can surmise that his narcissistic indulgence in this hobby came as a result of something other than living the good life (which might involve going to parties and wearing formal clothes, and knowing a bit about them, rather than a sudden interest in tailor's books). Having at last attracted a female, who now wants to cure him of his affliction, he is not going to turn her down. Obviously, as both are in Australia, the heat does not bode well for wearing high waisted 18th Century pantaloons he previously (and ridiculously, one might add) advertised as being good form. That said, the best of luck to them.

Noble Savage.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Greetings,

and, well, Welcome to the Fedora Lounge. I am not surprised to hear that a ladyfriend is behind Sator's change in attitudes, it is one of the most common reasons. Actually I am also not that surprised to hear that somebody has already been banned for "high treason against the modern satrorial ideals as stated by the High Priest of tailoring himself". It was bound to happen, sorry to hear that it was you.

Still, taking the climate as an excuse to dress abominably is really bad. One may understand foregoing heavy tweeds in favour of linen but not much else should be allowed.

Jokes aside (well, even partial jokes aside as in todays Vietnamese heat I am wearing, as usual, a three piece suit), we should really bolster a bit this thread with some more morning dress data and pictures.

Frock coats are very beautiful items. I inherited one from my great-grandfather and had another two made for me for normal use.
The inherited one is a beautiful garment, more than a hundred years old, which luckily is pretty close to my size. As I did not want to have it altered (any damage would be fatal) I had another one made to my measurements by my tailor. Both are black, double breasted with a 6x2 buttons configuration. The third one is in grey, same configuration but slightly smaller lapels.
None of these is for costume parties. Of course there is very little occasion to wear such a garment but as a tailoring blogger recently wrote a wedding or chistening could be such an occasion. Actually should the day be cold enough a double breasted frock coat could be a very welcome choice instead of a standard morning coat. I do remember the freezingly cold wedding of a friend and do still regret that I did not chose to wear my frock coat at the time.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Noble Savage]

And now for your amusement, the Sator Dress Coat Challenge:

BTW can we have pictures of you wearing your strapped dress coat with cuffs, half silk facings, functional buttonholes running down the lapel edge, side pockets, able to be buttoned up fully, with cut-on lapels and worn with silk breeches for a real world evening out? (And not in fancy dress for the Toy Soldier's ball )

p.s. I am still waiting on photos of anyone pulling off wearing a strapless dress coat with cut on lapels and half silk facings in a modern setting. Or is what is being recommended to the OP just wild sartorial fantasy? Or worse, a practical joke to convince him to spend thousands of euros on something that will look ridiculous?

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1961&st=18

The Response to the Sator Dress Coat Challenge, which does not appear on Sator's forum:

Noble Savage.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Good picture. Also the King of Tonga wore a frock suit at the same wedding and there were hundreds of guests wearing morning coats. All in all pretty well for some wild fantasy. Of course Sator was commenting on a specific type of coat and he may have some points there, still his attitude is not that nice.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Noble Savage]

Greetings, and, well, Welcome to the Fedora Lounge. ... Frock coats are very beautiful items. I inherited one from my great-grandfather and had another two made for me for normal use.
The inherited one is a beautiful garment, more than a hundred years old, which luckily is pretty close to my size. As I did not want to have it altered (any damage would be fatal) I had another one made to my measurements by my tailor. Both are black, double breasted with a 6x2 buttons configuration. The third one is in grey, same configuration but slightly smaller lapels.
None of these is for costume parties.

Thank you for your kind welcome!

Interesting matching blue tie and coat lining. Note that what appear to be patent leather shoes are being worn with spats in broad daylight. This sort of thing hasn't been often seen in quite some time.

Noble Savage.

 

[Noble Savage]

Good picture. Also the King of Tonga wore a frock suit at the same wedding and there were hundreds of guests wearing morning coats. All in all pretty well for some wild fantasy. Of course Sator was commenting on a specific type of coat and he may have some points there, still his attitude is not that nice.

As you were composing your reply, I was composing mine. Whatever Sator's feelings regarding dress coats with half-silk facings, his position as a dilettante means that he does not have to execute the orders of customers, who, had he any, might doubt that he has any good sense at all: one year 18th Century pantaloons are the rage, the next it is all about what is "fashionable" in 2011. A bunch of rubbish opinion that is.

Noble Savage.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

He is behaving like a silly beggar do not worry too much about him. Of course his voice still carries some weight on the web but should he keep pushing ghastly ultra-modern lounge coats and banning whoever disagrees with him he will do a lot more harm to himself than to anybody else in the long-term.

I was just reading the thread you linked and well he is really being silly. I read how "he would be ashamed to wear an Inverness", well I have been wearing one for decades without any problems. I wonder what he would say if he were to wander into one of the parties I go to now and then, where every male guest wears either black tie or white tie (no, they are not costume parties).

Of course a tailor will carry out the orders he receives. He may have to give some advice or he may want to give some advice to his customers but if they come to him for tailcoats and the like it is not his business to argue with them about the order (as it is not his business what his customers do in their life).
A tailor can suggest a better variant of the same item, but again the variant may not be what his customer prefers.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Sorry, double post due to server problem. Well now that I think about it my evening coat was made from 20s or 30s plates and the last couple of times I wore it I got so many compliments I thought I was going to blush. So much for older things looking ugly and costumey.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Charlie Huang]

And now for your amusement, the Sator Dress Coat Challenge:



The Response to the Sator Dress Coat Challenge, which does not appear on Sator's forum:

Noble Savage.

Interesting. I would actually forego the braid edging but it is a nice change.

Sator seems to forget that variation is just as important as being 'trendy' and sticking to one pattern/style of clothing worn by the great unwashed.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Good picture. Also the King of Tonga wore a frock suit at the same wedding and there were hundreds of guests wearing morning coats. All in all pretty well for some wild fantasy. Of course Sator was commenting on a specific type of coat and he may have some points there, still his attitude is not that nice.
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

I think if done correctly, it could look sharp as hell.

 

[mercuryfelt76]

Well done Charlie, that's exactly the photo I was going to post on this subject. I'm sure people wore light coloured bow ties with morning dress, I'm sure I've seen it. My opinion is that it must not be a black bow tie and it must blend nicely with the morning waste coat of choice.

 

[Charlie Huang]

I don't think they should be the same colour TBH (in the above photo, they were probably different colour). Anyways, Churchill was always a fan of the bow tie yet he does it so exceedingly well that it could not be incorrect to do so.

 

[mercuryfelt76]

I take your point on the colour. I know Churchill was a fan of the bow tie, the only photos I've ever seen of him not wearing bow tie he's either in uniform or not wearing a tie at all. However he was known for sometimes wearing the inappropriate attire and was often photographed with his bow tie looking scruffy or with a button undone. He was seen as a bit of an eccentric when it came to clothes, he used to wear an Astrakhan-collared coat - not considered to be very classy at the time. He also wore a (I'd appreciate it if anyone knew the name of this hat) high crowned bowler which gave him the reputation of being a bit old fashioned. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan and I think he made it work for him in the same way it's considered inappropriate for me to wear what I do in public in this day and age. But it works.

This aside IMHO a light coloured bow tie can be worn with morning dress if it looks good but I would expect etiquette experts to voice disapproval. I'm not entirely sure if it's inappropriate or was just unpopular because it was more time consuming to tie.

 

[Charlie Huang]

The bowler he wore is a Cambridge bowler.

Re bow tie with morning dress: I don't think there is anything said about what colour it ought to be other than it ought to be worn if you're wearing a neck badge of an Order (this is never followed nowadays so you get the rather silly look of having a badge try to stay centred on top a a necktie so they lengthened the ribbon and now it looks like a sports day medal).

 

[Noble Savage]

Black, white, and silver, striped or small "wedding" pattern ties all come to mind.

Noble Savage.

 

[Cobden]

I take your point on the colour. I know Churchill was a fan of the bow tie, the only photos I've ever seen of him not wearing bow tie he's either in uniform or not wearing a tie at all.

He seems to have worn a neck tie with lounge suits and soft collars before the war, and though maintaining the bow tie when in a black lounge or more formal clothing (common for a politician in this period). During the war, as the PM, he seems to have worn only the bow tie. It's almost as if he considered the neck tie in the manner in which we would consider no tie in this day and age - a casual thing.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Black, white, and silver, striped or small "wedding" pattern ties all come to mind.

Noble Savage.

Not necessarily. For formal ascots/cravats, the colour and pattern is different from necktie patterns for formal wear and so is for bow ties I imagine. It depends on what will work with the whole ensemble as there is a huge expanse of shirt to contend with.

 

[Salieri]

Polka dots, wide stripes and pale, block colours look pretty good for morning dress bow ties. That said, my favourite from my own collection is dark navy, pink and silver shepherd's check.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Surfing the web on an unrelated search I found, om getty images, a picture of the 1970 wedding of the 2nd Earl of Stockton (at the time Alexander MacMillan), where the grandfather of the groom (the late PM Harold MacMillan, 1st Earl of Stockton) is wearing a morning coat but the groom is wearing a frock coat. So much for the frock coat being dead in the 1930s!
Yours,

Phileas Fogg

 

[Dr Kilroy]

I do not consider a frock coat the best dress for weddings. Indeed, it is more formal and old-fashioned, but in my opinion it is too voluminous for groom (especially the double-breasted model, which is actually the only formal possibility). Morning coat looks "lighter".

Best regards, Dr