Miss, Mrs. or Madam? The demise of Ms?

[Paisley]

I've been called "ma'am" and "Miss Miller" since I was 12. What can I say--I was born old.

 

[Rachael]

The lack of formal address is certainly something that many have noted. Sadly many schools no longer require it, which I believe breaks down the hierarchy of respect for learning as well as instructors. However, I do understand the confusion and unwillingness to offend which has led to this.

one thing we lack is a marital-neutral title for women. The issue at hand with a title for myself is that I am not married, so use my given name. If you were to use the title "Mrs" this would connote that I am my father's wife, which I am not. To use the title "Miss" connotes that I am a young woman still under my father's roof, which I am not. I am a divorced woman with three children. There simply is not a useable title for me. "Ms" was invented for this purpose but due to the timing and circumstances of its introduction, many dislike to use it.

In the absence of a better option, I prefer to be addressed as "ma'am" or "Mrs" since I am clearly well over the age of 25. One form of address which truly annoyed me was the habit of referring to all adults by title and first name. "Miss Nancy" or Mr Steven" is just aggravating to me. I would prefer Nancy or Mrs Jones.

 

[CopperNY]

i default to Ma'am.

but i will use Miss if the woman appears significantly younger than myself, say 21 and under.

for work i'm expected to use Sir and Ma'am in phone conversation or in person with non-coworkers.

 

[Inky]

As usual, this thread got me thinking about the use of "Ms." as a salutation and a bit of research got me to this info from the American Heritage Dictionary:

USAGE NOTE: Many of us think of Ms. or Ms as a fairly recent invention of the women's movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association (1951) and The Simplified Letter, issued by the National Office Management Association (1952). Ms. is now widely used in both professional and social contexts. As a courtesy title Ms. serves exactly the same function that Mr. does for men, and like Mr. it may be used with a last name alone or with a full name. Furthermore, Ms. is correct regardless of a woman's marital status, thus relegating that information to the realm of private life, where many feel it belongs anyway. Some women prefer Miss or Mrs., however, and courtesy requires that their wishes be respected.

 

[LizzieMaine]

When I was growing up, we always pronounced Miss and Mrs as "Mizz" -- so when Ms. came out we didn't even notice. Me, I don't much care what title people use for me, as long as they spell my last name right. (Which, alas, they rarely do.)

 

[Matt Deckard]

I'm still in the air with what to call women.

I stick to Miss or Mrs. for now.

Remember this thread?
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=8916&highlight=demise

 

[HatfeathersVint]

This doesn't really help anything, but while reading it reminded me that my Grandma called her Mother-In-Law Mrs. Spotts, instead of by her first name or Grandma/Granny/GreatGranny. You would think they'd be on a first name basis after she'd been married to Grandpa for nearly 60 years and also being, technically, Mrs. Spotts, but nope, always the same.

I just think that's neat.

I try to address women as Mrs. ____ when calling on them for (vintage clothing) estate buys, just out of respect. Even ladies of 60-90 years will give me the "call me Millie" after we've been trolling through her closets and drawers together for a while.

Jenn

 

[tempestbella42]

[

I actually make a point lately of putting "Ms" on any applications, it annoys me that people automatically call me Mrs, Ive never married and my surname is my inherited family name so until its changed id rather not have "mrs" there...thats my mum and grandmothers name. i dont mind being a "miss" and "maam" just reminds me of my military days!

 

[just_me]

As usual, this thread got me thinking about the use of "Ms." as a salutation and a bit of research got me to this info from the American Heritage Dictionary:

USAGE NOTE: Many of us think of Ms. or Ms as a fairly recent invention of the women's movement, but in fact the term was first suggested as a convenience to writers of business letters by such publications as the Bulletin of the American Business Writing Association (1951) and The Simplified Letter, issued by the National Office Management Association (1952). Ms. is now widely used in both professional and social contexts. As a courtesy title Ms. serves exactly the same function that Mr. does for men, and like Mr. it may be used with a last name alone or with a full name. Furthermore, Ms. is correct regardless of a woman's marital status, thus relegating that information to the realm of private life, where many feel it belongs anyway. Some women prefer Miss or Mrs., however, and courtesy requires that their wishes be respected.

I didn't know about the earlier suggestion to use Ms., but I totally agree with the usage description. I prefer Ms. for myself and I use it for women I don't know or who have not voiced a preference for Miss or Mrs. If someone prefers Miss or Mrs., that's the title I'll use when addressing them.

What I really feel uncomfortable with is Mrs. John Smith. That harkens back to married women being treated as property.

 

[imoldfashioned]

Most of the women I know can tell you how old they were the first time they were called "Ma'am" instead of "Miss"--it's kind of a rite of passage (I was 16). I'm fine with either form of address.

 

[Sunny]

I've always preferred Miss, for myself. I like specificity. I work for a government contractor and official letters always use salutations. About half the time I correct theirs to read Miss instead of Ms. when referring to me, not to be obnoxious, but just because I prefer it. It's somewhat entertaining to see what subsequent letters pick that up and which do not.

I've never resented being called ma'am. For me, that's the non-specific way to address someone. Even my mother!

Back about 1800 any woman who was emancipated, in other words responsible for herself, was called Mrs. A single lady setting up to be a school marm, or something along those lines, would advertise herself as Mrs.

Really? I have never heard that. All I've heard of is the Misses Such-and-Such School for Girls, or Miss So-and-So's Whatever. I've gathered that Madam was accepted neutral-status term. May I ask where you learned that? I do living history, so I'd like to know if I've missed something.

Of course the contraction Mrs. stands for Mistress, as in the Mistress of a household. How the word got its more illicit implication I don't know, just another irony of language.

Also interesting! I recently read a story set in early 1700s England, and a young unmarried woman in it was consistently called Mistress LastName. (I think married women were Madam, but I would need to check.) I though that Miss was the natural shortening of Mistress. I know a novel isn't the best historical source; but it was written no later than 1925, so I want to give the author credit for knowing more about it than we do.

 

[DerMann]

Not sure where I read it, but for a while I was under the impression that Mrs. was a simplification of Mr.'s (mister's) as in belonging to a husband.

Wikipedia and the Etymology Dictionary both disproved this, but I do remember reading it and thinking how odd that was.

Is this on anyone's radar or did I conjure this up while I was bored one summer day?

 

[Josephine]

This doesn't really help anything, but while reading it reminded me that my Grandma called her Mother-In-Law Mrs. Spotts, instead of by her first name or Grandma/Granny/GreatGranny. You would think they'd be on a first name basis after she'd been married to Grandpa for nearly 60 years and also being, technically, Mrs. Spotts, but nope, always the same.

My German SIL, before she became my SIL, at first always called my mom Mrs. M---. My mom asked my brother why Sabine always called her that, and my brother said it was because my mom hadn't given Sabine "the du". As in French, in German when you spoke to an older/respected/etc person, you used the more formal "ihr" until they gave you "the du", permission to call them more informally.

ok, not sure how that ties in with the topic, but it's a funny story...

 

[Marc Chevalier]

One who will always be Madam: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3004/2830187118_db1284d93e.jpg?v=0

.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Or toots or sweetheart.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

There are more terms, you know...


-- Milady

-- Mam'selle

-- Missy

-- She Who Must Be Obeyed

.

 

[Abyss]

If I am asked to do something, or my name is called in an authoritative tone, I always respond "Yes, sir" or "Yes, ma'am." I didn't use to, but when I decided to be overall more respectful I basically programmed myself to be like that.

It has resulted in a few confused comments by members of my age group... "Why are you calling me 'ma'am?' We're the same age!"

"It's all a matter of respect, ma'am..."

 

[thunderw21]

Just stick to the facts, ma'am.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

I've always thought:

Miss = young lady, as in "Can I help you Miss" or "Miss Jane Doe."
Ms. = woman who you don't know if she's married or not, in paper/email correspondence, never/rarely used aloud.
Mrs. = woman who's married, as in "Mrs. John Doe."
Ma'am = woman of a certain age, as in "Can I help you Ma'am."

I consider "Yes Ma'am" not to imply the same as above, just as when someone says "you guys" I don't consider it to imply the speaker thinks the gals are guys.

 

[Sunny]

There are more terms, you know...

-- She Who Must Be Obeyed

.

THAT'S ME.