Manners - The NY Times gets it

[Paisley]

I've found, in general, that my dance partners who are in their 20s (and even teens) are more courteous, gentle and attuned to subtle social signals than baby boomers. Are they more responsible? I don't know. But the 20-somethings I work with are responsible and willing and eager to help, like pretty much all my coworkers of various ages.

 

[Paisley]

Perhaps in a way adulthood is delayed, but not necessarily because we want to shuck responsibility. I think it's delayed because no longer is an Associate's or even a Bachelor's degree enough to get a good job. You need a Master's, plus cruddy unpaid internships, plus experience to get your career going now. With all your effort going towards education, true "adulthood" (I'm presuming this means owning a home, working 9-5, marriage, family, etc) gets pushed aside.

Have you considered learning a trade?

 

[John in Covina]

I've found, in general, that my dance partners who are in their 20s (and even teens) are more courteous, gentle and attuned to subtle social signals than baby boomers. Are they more responsible? I don't know. But the 20-somethings I work with are responsible and willing and eager to help, like pretty much all my coworkers of various ages.

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Perhaps it is more in tune with the people that are seeking out dance venues. Chances are the the person who is becoming a librarian or going to seminary will probably be more studied and courteous also.

My comments are not directed at every person but to indicate a trend in the populice, in general.

 

[John in Covina]

Now kids have to be in 10 different clubs, have perfect SAT scores, play a sport, be able to sing opera AND write a fantastic essay, just to MAYBE get wait-listed at a good university. This is an exaggeration, but not by that much, unfortunately.

**************
This situtation is not the norm with the parents I know. As a matter of fact I don't know anyone that does much more than having their kids play some type of sport and playing chauffer. The over achieving children of pushy parents exist but I haven't really met any of them.

The one thing I will say is I have on my sister in laws side parents that have worked with their kids to learn to read early and be good readers which has helped with their children's academics but the parents aren't really pushy.

 

[pigeon toe]

Have you considered learning a trade?

I've always been pushed to succeed in academics and arts, so no, I haven't. I enjoy academia, but it can be difficult. I'm not looking forward to the amount of years of schooling I have left to complete just until I can be a legitimate librarian! My ex is currently going to school for Automotive Collision Repair. He enjoys it, but I think it can be equally difficult landing a job from trade school as it is straight out of a 4 year university, if not more so.

This situtation is not the norm with the parents I know. As a matter of fact I don't know anyone that does much more than having their kids play some type of sport and playing chauffer. The over achieving children of pushy parents exist but I haven't really met any of them.

I've seen it a lot in my family and neighborhood, and not everyone's kid is an overachiever, nor are the parents pushy. My family and community are the sort that really are into 4-year college educations, so perhaps that's why it feels so common to me now. Really, to get into a 4 year university, good grades and SAT scores are no longer really enough.

 

[reetpleat]

Manners are supposed to be what you do as a good person to make the other person feel welcome appreciated and feel good.

Manners are not a code by which we all must live or we are bad people.

And if someone bumps into me and does not say excuse me, the choice is mine to be upset or not. Certainly they might say a sorry to keep me from feeling bad, but it does not make much difference to me. I will not let their actions affect me. It is bad enough he takes such offense at a dropped apple, but to also take offense at the lack of apology is setting yourself up for a lot of heartache.

Of course, if you do not like the customer service, go somewhere else.

 

[Miss 1929]

Sounds like the writer makes himself feel important and oh-so-much-nicer that others by acting like a passive-aggressive jerk.
Too bad that New Yorkers seem to have lost that old-time smart-alec response they used to be known for...
Probably he is being so "subtle" that they think he's insane. No wonder they look confused.

 

[Paisley]

****************
Perhaps it is more in tune with the people that are seeking out dance venues.

I'm comparing dancers to dancers.

 

[Fletch]

Sounds like the writer makes himself feel important and oh-so-much-nicer that others by acting like a passive-aggressive jerk.
Too bad that New Yorkers seem to have lost that old-time smart-alec response they used to be known for...

They haven't lost the 'tude. Just the humor. There are as many active-aggressive jerks around as passive.

 

[Mrs. Merl]

I am a really relaxed kind of person, but I can understand this persons weariness with the people around him. I do not necessarily believe that people really have any worse manners than they ever had, but I do believe that the booming population has made the likelihood of meeting an ill mannered individual far more likely. And perhaps people really do have that poor a regard for the people they meet on a daily basis. Who knows... But I am certainly tired of the lack of courtesy I will surely encounter when I walk out my door. But what do we do?

I feel that shame is sorely lacking on society today. Perhaps the writer has not gone about his personal crusade in the most intelligent of ways. But I do feel that if one is going to take any kind of offense to the way that others treat them (even to the extent of commenting at anytime on the behavior), that perhaps one should consider that it is because we are so "well mannered" that we have caused this problem. We let people get away with treating each other poorly. We don't say anything. We hold no one to any sort of standard. Perhaps we hold our tongue because we feel it makes us superior in manners; or because we fear the repercussions of letting someone know that we noticed that they did something that used to be unacceptable "in polite society." We all know that society will not back us up if we were to shame people for the way they act. So it is a vicious cycle. We are doomed to this lack of regard because we will not speak up, because we are too "well mannered."

So I resign myself to being poorly mannered. Because in any situation I deem worthy of letting someone know that they have acted in an unacceptable way, I do. I do not blast them in such a way as to make a scene, but I will calmly ask the person who just made my apple not worth purchasing that I would prefer that they got me a new one. I often send letters to places of business to inform them of situations I find unacceptable. On the other hand, I also write letters to let people when they have done something right. I refuse to constantly let people walk on me, so I will be ill mannered myself I suppose.

(Sorry personal rant.)

 

[Paisley]

ISo I resign myself to being poorly mannered. Because in any situation I deem worthy of letting someone know that they have acted in an unacceptable way, I do. I do not blast them in such a way as to make a scene, but I will calmly ask the person who just made my apple not worth purchasing that I would prefer that they got me a new one. I often send letters to places of business to inform them of situations I find unacceptable. On the other hand, I also write letters to let people when they have done something right. I refuse to constantly let people walk on me, so I will be ill mannered myself I suppose.

(Sorry personal rant.)

There's nothing unmannerly about any of this. Contrary to popular belief, manners don't exist strictly to make other people feel comfortable. The best definition I've heard of etiquette is "the outward expression of inner character."

 

[Baron Kurtz]

What're you supposed to do??

Let's say you're walking along a narrow sidewalk, very common in London. The sidewalk is wide enough for two people side by side, maybe 2 1/2. But a third would need to step into the street. A busy street, we'll assume. There are two people walking towards you side by side. You, good citizen that you are, make sure to allow enough space for them to pass in single file. But neither of them will move. In this instance, they get bumped into; they often become irate; they can't believe that you would dare such a thing! There will be no apology emanating from my mouth, even though i saw the situation coming. I did all i could to avoid it, and they did nothing. Why should i apologize? So i don't. I simply steel my shoulder/elbow for the oncoming collision and generally come off the better and continue on my merry way not even acknowledging that anything happened.


I have little understanding of why people behave in this way (those who will not move). I have heard tell that amongst office workers of similar career level walking out to lunch, there is a desperate avoidance of ever appearing to take the leading (speeding up, getting in front in order to make space) or the subservient (slowing down, getting behind, for the same reason) role, lest it be noted and assumed that that's how it would thenceforth be in the workplace. So, they string themselves out to the maximum extent of the damn sidewalk, no-one in front, no-one behind. In this situation, why on earth should everyone else be forced to move? If people are so self-obsessed that they cannot bear to act in a manner conducive to harmonic city-living, why should anyone else care about bumping into them or knocking them over?

People should leave their sad, miserable office-politics in the office, sound in the knowledge that their efforts are pointless as the majority of them will not rise above their current level and most will end up lower on the ladder. If not, they will continue to receive my shoulder.

Sorry, this issue really is one of the worst things about living in close confines with so many people. Those of us who try to behave in a civilized manner are constantly confronted with idiots who cannot deal with being a part of a community, who are unable to understand that there are more people in the world than them.



And that's what the writer is getting at. He puts it over badly … because he's a bad writer and his method of dealing with it was frankly idiotic. But he seems to be saying that the relatively insular way in which many people are now living their lives, and the general level of self-obsession that this has seemingly created, is making life rotten for those who are not utterly insular and self-obsessed. People simply don't seem to be aware that other people exist, outside of their iPhones and whatever excuse for a mind they have. Note his example of the checkout attendant with the thousand yard stare. I don't think she was staring because of what he said. She was staring because the concept of interacting was so far beyond the purview her world-view that she couldn't process it, and stared into the distance, praying that the disruptive influence would go away. If you ignore it, it doesn't exist!

bk

 

[jgilbert]

The only manners you can control and apologize for are your own.
I treat all with the same high level of respect.

 

[Fletch]

If people are so self-obsessed that they cannot bear to act in a manner conducive to harmonic city-living, why should anyone else care about bumping into them or knocking them over?

People should leave their sad, miserable office-politics in the office, sound in the knowledge that their efforts are pointless as the majority of them will not rise above their current level and most will end up lower on the ladder. If not, they will continue to receive my shoulder.

You'd either make a highly respectable New Yorker or an utterly contemptible one.

Either way, you likely would not get published. One never seriously questions ambition in NY. It's like going to Detroit and saying life would be better if we didn't have to drive everywhere.

 

[Paisley]

I've noticed this in Denver, too: people will sometimes walk abreast and not fall back when I'm approaching them. Some of them just aren't looking where they are going. I come to a full stop or say excuse me.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

You'd either make a highly respectable New Yorker or an utterly contemptible one.

Either way, you likely would not get published. One never seriously questions ambition in NY. It's like going to Detroit and saying life would be better if we didn't have to drive everywhere.

I don't see what any of the above has to do with ambition. But then, i'm not from NY.

I have no problem getting published.

And life would actually be much better if people would get over their obsession with automotive transport.

But none of this deals with the central issue of why one should apologize for bumping into someone if it's their fault and they could have avoided it. BS arguments about manners just don't cut it.

bk

 

[Fletch]

I don't see what any of the above has to do with ambition. But then, i'm not from NY.

Nor am I, but I lived thereabouts for quite awhile, and AFAICT, self-obsession and sad, miserable office politics were the by-products of New Yorkers' particular brand of ambition as often as not.

Tension, anger, and misery, divided in millions of little bites, are the background noise of the city. Without them all kinds of things - good, beautiful, amazing things - just wouldn't be possible. I always said you don't have to be crazy to live there, but you do have to be open to the possibility.

And life would actually be much better if people would get over their obsession with automotive transport.

Yeah, wouldn't it? Too bad it would take a national catastrophe to make it happen. [huh]

OK, back on topic.

 

[Feraud]

Just a reminder that New York City did not invent ambition, office politics, or rude behavior.
Let's have a moratorium on NYC bashing.

 

[MrBern]

flippant insouciance

Just a reminder that New York City did not invent ambition, office politics, or rude behavior.
Let's have a moratorium on NYC bashing.

I thought they were invented in Scranton?

 

[Feraud]

Nope. Scranton merely gave us the Schrutebuck.