Mallory's Everest jacket: gussets out there today?

[nobodyspecial]

My understanding was Mallory and Irvine died from a fall, exposure was secondary. That is, no fall, no broken leg, they make it back alive.

I think mountaineers use modern gear as its lighter, more so than a preference for sythetics versus wool. One can climb a lot faster with less weight. When I backpack I carry a larger ratio of synthetic clothing to save weight. When I canoe or winter camp I carry a larger ratio of wool clothing as I prefer to use wool in the bush and am not as concerned with pack weight during those trips.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Surely any explorer or mountaineer wears the best clothing and uses what they believe to be the best gear that is available to them at the time? I'm sure Mallory and Irvine did. The stated purpose of the recent experiment was not to prove the 1924 gear (or modern woollen gear) superior to anything - but to show that in the right conditions a good climber can summit Everest in the type of gear that was used in 1924. This was achieved.

People have 'run away' with a throwaway statement that in some respects and under some conditions the 1924 gear had certain advantages over modern one piece suits. Expedition members have pointed out that the 1924 clothing is markedly inferior to the modern stuff in extreme conditions. I suspect that the cold-induced injuries that early explorers and mountaineers were prepared to suffer would not be tolerated now.

The effects of cold and fall injuries are often inter-related. Some people die from falls because they were suffering from cold. Some people die from cold because they had a fall.

Alan

 

[Smithy]

Although I am not a mountaineer, I believe I can offer comment on this modern versus "classic" warm weather gear. I have lived inside the Arctic Circle and have also been on hunting trips in the mountains (within the Polar Circle) and have experienced temperatures of -50C to -60C.

Although woollen and more traditional clothing is useful, to be honest a lot of modern materials (especially for outer clothing) are in many ways superior. When in such conditions a critical factor is the ability of the outer layers to be 100% windproof. Anybody who lives within the Polar Circle with tell you, it's not the temperature itself which will kill but windchill. However it is not merely OK to just rug yourself up in layer after layer because if materials don't breathe then you will start to sweat and the sweat will not be dispersed but will stay on the skin which is also dangerous, especially when one is being physically active.

As nobodyspecial pointed out lightweight is a major positive which cuts down on physical exertion (in very low temperatures the body is already working harder than normal to regulate and keep a normal temperature) but modern arctic and alpine clothing's major benefits are the ability to be windproof, insulate the body against severely cold temperatures, be water resistant and to "breathe".

Obviously alpinists and polar dwellers in previous eras did not have the high tech fabrics which are available today but it would be wrong to say that the traditional materials are superior. You will also find that traditional materials are very often worn on inner layers but there is a reason why in seriously cold temperatures and conditions, more modern garments are seen used as outer clothing.

 

[Alan Eardley]

<Snip>
You will also find that traditional materials are very often worn on inner layers but there is a reason why in seriously cold temperatures and conditions, more modern garments are seen used as outer clothing.

True, but for fun I sometimes do it the other way around, wearing a Dutch Army Gore-tex 'drop liner' (removable parka liner) under a tweed Norfolk jacket. People can't work out why I'm not getting wet!

Alan

 

[nobodyspecial]

The best synthetic garment I've used is the super-thermo net bottoms by Brynje. Every time I wear these I am amazed at how well they work in keeping my legs warm and dry. http://www.brynje.no/public/index.php?set_language=en&cccpage=webshop_l1&set_z_qm_product_grp1=6

I layer the Brynje bottoms under merino wool long underwear and the combination works like a charm. I have merino wool net tops by Devold, but the merino wool absorbs moisture and so my upper body feels damp whereas my legs never feel damp. This winter season I am going to purchase a Brynje net top to layer under wool t-shirts. I hope to have the same results as with the bottoms.

In the US, Brynje is sold via Reliable Racing Supply. http://www.reliableracing.com/searchresults.cfm?search=Brynje

Before modern synthetic long underwear your choices were made of cotton, wool or fishnet (generally cotton as well). Fishnet underwear out of synthetics has worked very well for me.

 

[Alan Eardley]

What you are describing here - a Brynje string vest and pants and merino combination - was pretty standard in the period before WW2. It's what my father wore. In the UK the merino 'thermals' (they called them 'long combinations') were made by Smedley in Matlock, who supplied the Everest expedition.

Alan

I layer the Brynje bottoms under merino wool long underwear and the combination works like a charm. I have merino wool net tops by Devold, but the merino wool absorbs moisture and so my upper body feels damp whereas my legs never feel damp.
Before modern synthetic long underwear your choices were made of cotton, wool or fishnet (generally cotton as well) <Many Snips>.

 

[Smithy]

string vest

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the good old string singlet was also standard issue in the British and Commonwealth armed forces during the war. My old man still has a few in the sock drawer!

 

[Alan Eardley]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure the good old string singlet was also standard issue in the British and Commonwealth armed forces during the war. My old man still has a few in the sock drawer!

Yes, it was, and underpants were also on issue. There was also a really tough, thick string singlet (looked like white chain mail) that was worn over the battle dress and under the windproof smock or Dennison smock. My Dad used to swear by both. I doubt the 'over' singlet is the sort you Dad has in his sock drawer - unless he has a very large drawer! Here we are:

Weirdly, the singlets enjoyed (?) a brief revival in the 1970s as punks took to wearing them. Grrrr!!! I bet that put the prices up...

Alan

 

[nobodyspecial]

Interesting, but I think I'll stick with the Brynje products.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Interesting, but I think I'll stick with the Brynje products.

I sort of collect ridiculous explanations of and reasons for military kit. These are usually 'invented' by people with more imagination than knowledge and sometimes are accepted by the gullible as 'true' - mainly because they appear on the World Wide Web (must be true, right?).

A common example is the well-known but mythical 'spare goggle strap' on the back of an RAF flying jacket collar. This one is even better - someone once tried to convince we that the singlet was a covenient way for a soldier to carry string into battle. Presumably if you needed to wrap emergency parcels under fire you just picked it apart and used the string. And then knitted back together afterwards, presumably The guy swore this was 'true'!

Alan

 

[Micawber]

Alan,
Have you forgotten that the string was used as a means of permitting troops to withdraw along the same route as they advanced too?

 

[Alan Eardley]

Alan,
Have you forgotten that the string was used as a means of permitting troops to withdraw along the same route as they advanced too?

...In the dark or in tunnels. Of course. WD thought of everything...

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

Bump and added (from creaking memory) item of detail.

I believe the man's name was George Band!

A

Incidentally, I once had the opportunity to examine a jacket that was worn by one of the support team in the 1952 Everest expedition. It was owned by a man who had (if I remember correctly) been a medical student and keen climber and frequented Snowdonia (particularly the Pen-y-Gurid Hotel) at the time that the British contingent was doing its technical preparation there. He was taken on by the succesful expedition and served in a support role. Much later (perhaps after he retired), he became a noted personality in the Snowdonia area and was sometimes seen wearing the jacket he had worn on the expedition.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

Gussets you want???

Bump and <photo added>

Here is a shot of a gusset. Notice the external seams. This is what makes me think the gussets were originally added to an existing Burberry shooting jacket. Surely any tailor worth his or her salt would make internal seams when making up the jacket?

Alan

Incidentally, this jacket is (except for shoulder patches) very like a gaberdine shooting jacket that Belstaff used to make in the 1960s and 70s called the 'Moorlander'.

Oh, and just to correct a common misconception, this is an under-jacket. The 1924 Everest party appear to be wearing these (and tweeds) in photographs because most of the photos were taken at base camp. For the summit attempts (there were several) the climbers wore Burberry 'Shackleton overalls' over them. It would still be very cold!

Alan

Very perspicacious, my Antipodean chum, the gussets were odd. Assuming that the reproduction was accurate (which we are assured they are), I guess that they were added to the orginals as an afterthought. They are just a segment-shaped insertion into what seems to me to be a relatively normal 1920s sleeeve. This cannot 'work' in tailoring terms and will 'bag out' when the arm is held normallly.
Alan

 

[BellyTank]

In modifying/adding Gussetts...

I imagine that in a normal jacket- the "fully open", arms-aloft (and legs akimbo, perhaps)arm stance would not be very generous. If you were to open the "under-arm" stitching, lift the arms up, (further than they could be before you un-picked the stitching)so that they're higher than horizontal, then sew in a large gusset, (more complicated than this)I guess you'd end up with something like the Mallory jacket's add-on gussets. You can now lift your arms above horizontal, which might be useful in climbing mountains. Batwings perhaps but function over form...

Open armpits have been seen before on Anoraks and other active-wear- ventilation and added mobility.

B
T

 

[Alan Eardley]

Exactly - it just seems like a way of adding more material under the arms.

I imagine that in a normal jacket- the "fully open", arms-aloft (and legs akimbo, perhaps)arm stance would not be very generous. If you were to open the "under-arm" stitching, lift the arms up, (further than they could be before you un-picked the stitching)so that they're higher than horizontal, then sew in a large gusset, (more complicated than this)I guess you'd end up with something like the Mallory jacket's add-on gussets. You can now lift your arms above horizontal, which might be useful in climbing mountains. Batwings perhaps but function over form...

Open armpits have been seen before on Anoraks and other active-wear- ventilation and added mobility.

B
T

Indeed. The cold war era British Army 'Jacket, Foul Weather' has an aperture under the arm with a mesh infill. Works OK.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

Mandelberg suits - Norwegian?

Can any of our Scandanavian loungers help?

It struck me that the baggy two-piece tightly-woven gaberdine suits worn by most of the Antartic expeditions of the 1910s and Himalayan expeditions of the 1920s are often called 'Shackleton suits'. It is perhaps fitting that they are named for that great and under-rated explorer, yet the suits are seen being worn before Shackleton and Scott, so presumably they had a previous name and a former use. Here is Shacketon wearing such a suit in 1909.

This fascinated me, so I have been carrying out some research, and the earliest reference (IRT Nansen) I can find to such suits with a name is Mandelberg Suit, and the implication that they were already used for skiing.

Does anyone know the origin or significance of 'Mandelberg'? Was it a person or is it a place? Or perhaps one or the other having given the name to a style of skiing (like Telemark)?

Alan

 

[Smithy]

I have never heard the term Mandelberg suit used here Alan.

Obviously one and two-piece snow/survival suits are still common here, and funnily enough although materials have obviously changed the overall look is very much the same. Children, especially, are very often rugged up in similar garb in the wintertime.

Although it's not uncommon to see clothing named after places here (Telemarkgenser), I've never heard of a place or area called Mandelberg, so my money would be on a certain person with the surname.

 

[Alan Eardley]

I've just come across an advertisement by Burberry in a 1928 edition of 'The Field' magazine for fishing (angling) wear which shows a jacket that appears to be very similar to the 'Everest' jacket and which makes a point of mentioning the 'Pivot Sleeve' (in capitals) to make casting easier. Perhaps that explains why the jacket has a such an arrangement under the arm but no 'action back' as is usual in a shooting jacket.

Alan

 

[BellyTank]

Interesting...
and Mallory's expedition was 1924.
How to market such a feature- not off the back of a dead climber.
Maybe it pre-dates Mallory...


B
T