MA-1 Flight jacket

[Smithy]

I'll never be able to afford / justify that at Buzz money, though.

+1.

I simply can't bring myself to spend that sort of money on nylon. Leather - yes but nylon? No way.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Seb, believe me, the difference in quality between even the best Alpha has ever made and Buzz Rickson is so great that the price of the Buzz is pretty close to what it should be. The outer cloth is of a completely different nature altogether and all the other materials and workmanship are leagues above Alpha. Easily on par with any leather jacket manufacturer.

I'm sure that's true but I won't pay for nylon. It's... nylon. Heck, I've worn a bus driver's piece of shit nylon bomber jacket from China for 10 years it's thin and made out of crap. My Alpha IS a Buzz next to that one. It'll have to do unless I can source a fantastically made nylon job I like for under $200.

 

[Justhandguns]

Seb, believe me, the difference in quality between even the best Alpha has ever made and Buzz Rickson is so great that the price of the Buzz is pretty close to what it should be. The outer cloth is of a completely different nature altogether and all the other materials and workmanship are leagues above Alpha. Easily on par with any leather jacket manufacturer.

Well, from what they claim is that, they use 'dead stock' nylon or the closest possible match of original nylon on those jackets, plus of course, period correct zippers and real wool knits. But then, a nylon jacket is still a nylon jacket, paying well over US400 for that? That is a definitely NO for me, with some extra 100bucks, you can get a decent leather jacket. I have looked at the nylon fabric on some of my original nylon jackets dated back from the 60s', they nylon isn't particularly robust when compared to the US made Alpha's. If one really want a robust nylon type of jacket, they should just get the current CWU jackets, better cuttings, slimmer in comparison.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Well, from what they claim is that, they use 'dead stock' nylon or the closest possible match of original nylon on those jackets, plus of course, period correct zippers and real wool knits. But then, a nylon jacket is still a nylon jacket, paying well over US400 for that? That is a definitely NO for me, with some extra 100bucks, you can get a decent leather jacket. I have looked at the nylon fabric on some of my original nylon jackets dated back from the 60s', they nylon isn't particularly robust when compared to the US made Alpha's. If one really want a robust nylon type of jacket, they should just get the current CWU jackets, better cuttings, slimmer in comparison.

I'm always a little skeptical of the dead stock materials which are found and used by repro companies. Despite the treasure hunter mentality, there really aren't huge warehouses somewhere filled with dead stock raw materials just waiting for Buzz Rickson or whoever to find and use. Storing stuff costs money and I don't think anyone is going to keep around dozens of bolts of obsolete 50 year old nylon cloth, esp since technology does improve... we aren't making better horses, but we are making better synthetic fabrics. I admit that I am just speculating, however.

 

[Smithy]

I'm always a little skeptical of the dead stock materials which are found and used by repro companies. Despite the treasure hunter mentality, there really aren't huge warehouses somewhere filled with dead stock raw materials just waiting for Buzz Rickson or whoever to find and use. Storing stuff costs money and I don't think anyone is going to keep around dozens of bolts of obsolete 50 year old nylon cloth, esp since technology does improve... we aren't making better horses, but we are making better synthetic fabrics. I admit that I am just speculating, however.

TBH I think you're right about the stockpiles of deadstock vintage nylon Doc.

I don't doubt that BR go off and source nylon as close to the original spec as possible or have it made, but the idea that they just happen upon yards and yards of original nylon in enough quantities to do a whole production run of jackets is horse dung as far as I see.

 

[Edward]

It certainly seems unlikely - tbh, I'd be more convinced by a load of unissued original jackets turning up - at least back in the day. When I first got big into army surplus back in the late Eighties, the stuff I was buying and wearing off the racks then was mostly Sixties and Seventies, much of it unissued. Racks and racks of M65s I remember especially, and MA1s...

Seb, believe me, the difference in quality between even the best Alpha has ever made and Buzz Rickson is so great that the price of the Buzz is pretty close to what it should be. The outer cloth is of a completely different nature altogether and all the other materials and workmanship are leagues above Alpha. Easily on par with any leather jacket manufacturer.

I should think it probably depends a lot on which Alpha. The current base model, which sells cheaply, certainly is nothing on the Buzz. I have both one of the Alpha Replica Series B15C from the early 90s, and a Buzz Rickson B15C-Mod. While the latter is certainly better, I don't think I could honestly say it was worth ten times the price I paid for the Alpha. Fortunately I found it on eBay for only twice what the Alpha cost me, both includingb shipping. That's about right, imo. Better in many respects, jsut not that much better. YMMV, naturally.

I'm sure that Rickson makes the best quality nylon repros on the market. I've heard nothing but good things about them. My problem with Rickson is two-fold. First, they are way undersized and seem not to make a true size XL jacket.

My B15CMod is an XL, which comes out at a 44. I'd imagine that would be significantly smaller than a US XL; not to mention that XL is, I think, the top end of the BR offerings. In China, I'm an XXXL in most things - fortunately the Chinese will make as many Xs as you want, if you want their product.

Second, their prices are typically higher than originals.

Quality original nylon is still available, though nowadays you do have to beat the bushes to find it. It’s not like the '90s when A, B and C series MA-1s were frequently on eBay in even size XL. But it is still out there and at prices well below what is charged by the premium repro makers.

AF

Will there come a time when that changes, or will the lack of cinematic romanticism of the relevant period, as distinct from WW2, mean values won't be pushed up the way they have for A2s, Irvins, et cetera?

+1.

I simply can't bring myself to spend that sort of money on nylon. Leather - yes but nylon? No way.

It's odd. I've tried to rationalise it to myself, but I can't. Ultimately, when it comes to shelling out for a good military repro, whether high end nylon or leather doesn't, I am sure, make as much difference to the price as quality hardware, correct cut, labelling, and overall production of a high end garment to exacting specs beyond mere quality / utility, for a small, niche market. Still I find it much easier to justify a high end leather's price than nylon. I'm sure Lizzie's Boys From Marketing figure in here somewhere!

 

[Edward]

Chanced across this on the Alpha site, it'd be interesting to see one in person.

http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Honor-Flight-Jacket.asp

Though this looks more like a variation on a theme than the actual 50s repro they suggest - wasn't it 1960 that saw the first of the orange liners?

(FWIW.... For those who favour the fluffy collar, this looks like a viable option: http://www.alphaindustries.com/Mens-Flight-Jackets/Alpha-Industries-Replica-B-15-Flight-Jacket.asp ).

 

[Justhandguns]

I'm always a little skeptical of the dead stock materials which are found and used by repro companies. Despite the treasure hunter mentality, there really aren't huge warehouses somewhere filled with dead stock raw materials just waiting for Buzz Rickson or whoever to find and use. Storing stuff costs money and I don't think anyone is going to keep around dozens of bolts of obsolete 50 year old nylon cloth, esp since technology does improve... we aren't making better horses, but we are making better synthetic fabrics. I admit that I am just speculating, however.

100% agree. I seriously doubt that they use NOS fabric for those jackets. Maybe some limited edition in the very first beginning?

I think the reason why these Japanese repros can command such a high price tag is just down to demand and supply. Say, for example,
Buzz Rickson, they do small production batches for their jackets every season with limited editions, usually with patches. And then, like
I have mentioned a couple of times before, the demand for original nylon flight jacket has jumped right up in the past few years by collectors
everywhere for some reasons, and God knows why.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Though this looks more like a variation on a theme than the actual 50s repro they suggest - wasn't it 1960 that saw the first of the orange liners?

Yes...but only in the L-2B. It was 1961 for the MA-1. Actually, Alpha didn't have a 1960 or 1961 contract for either jacket. The first orange liners appeared in the '61 Skyline MA-1s and the 1960 Skyline L-2Bs.

Which brings me to another point. Being a hard-core original nylon junkie, I'm more than a little frustrated by the unadulterated crap Alpha writes on their site in an effort to puff their various products. I despair that much of their advertising copy is taken as gospel and it becomes inextricably woven into internet jacket folklore. Before you know it, people are scouring the web trying to find the most accurate reproduction of the blue MA-1 that Coast Guard glider pilots wore during the invasion of Normandy.

AF

 

[Justhandguns]

Yes...but only in the L-2B. It was 1961 for the MA-1. Actually, Alpha didn't have a 1960 or 1961 contract for either jacket. The first orange liners appeared in the '61 Skyline MA-1s and the 1960 Skyline L-2Bs.

Which brings me to another point. Being a hard-core original nylon junkie, I'm more than a little frustrated by the unadulterated crap Alpha writes on their site in an effort to puff their various products. I despair that much of their advertising copy is taken as gospel and it becomes inextricably woven into internet jacket folklore. Before you know it, people are scouring the web trying to find the most accurate reproduction of the blue MA-1 that Coast Guard glider pilots wore during the invasion of Normandy.

AF

I think not even the writer of the description knows all the details and history of the MA-1 jackets. It might just be some
IT guys who do the updates for them. The same goes for Wild One Brando jacket that Schott claim to have made, Indiana Jones
jacket from Wested and the most recently Eastman vs Goodwear in the movie Red Tails.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I think not even the writer of the description knows all the details and history of the MA-1 jackets. It might just be some
IT guys who do the updates for them. The same goes for Wild One Brando jacket that Schott claim to have made, Indiana Jones
jacket from Wested and the most recently Eastman vs Goodwear in the movie Red Tails.

I think I was with you up to the very last part. I would tend to believe anything that John Chapman says about vintage jackets...of any kind...and I would tend to believe anything I read on the Goodwear site. But maybe you were talking about the movie advertising.

AF

 

[Blackadder]

I'm sure that Rickson makes the best quality nylon repros on the market. I've heard nothing but good things about them. My problem with Rickson is two-fold. First, they are way undersized and seem not to make a true size XL jacket. Second, their prices are typically higher than originals.

Quality original nylon is still available, though nowadays you do have to beat the bushes to find it. It’s not like the '90s when A, B and C series MA-1s were frequently on eBay in even size XL. But it is still out there and at prices well below what is charged by the premium repro makers.
AF

I am not sure if Rickson makes the best quality nylon repros on the market but their alpaca lined jackets like N-1, B-10 and B-15s are not the best in terms of material used and that's for sure.

 

[Doctor Damage]

I despair that much of their advertising copy is taken as gospel and it becomes inextricably woven into internet jacket folklore. Before you know it, people are scouring the web trying to find the most accurate reproduction of the blue MA-1 that Coast Guard glider pilots wore during the invasion of Normandy.

LOL classic, and quite right - I see in books and on websites lots of nonsense being repeated, and even quoting blogs and corporate websites as "references"!

 

[Otter]

LOL classic, and quite right - I see in books and on websites lots of nonsense being repeated, and even quoting blogs and corporate websites as "references"!

Let me look in the cupboard, I think I got one of those from ebay!!

 

[Edward]

100% agree. I seriously doubt that they use NOS fabric for those jackets. Maybe some limited edition in the very first beginning?

That seems most likely... then beyond that, miscommunication and the rumour mill takes over. I can't imagine a company like BR getting where they are and getting away withoutright porkies like that, given the nature of their niche target market(!).

I think the reason why these Japanese repros can command such a high price tag is just down to demand and supply. Say, for example,
Buzz Rickson, they do small production batches for their jackets every season with limited editions, usually with patches.

Possibly. There are a lot of these jackets where, if you want a reasonable repro, at present these Japanese guys are the only option, which means they don't have to compete. I am told the collectors' market in Japan values paying a high price (the old marketing trick of perceived value comes in here in a big way), which would push it further. Then also bear in mind the relatively tiny niche market for these jackets. It costs a lot of money to trial a product and get it to market like this: the smaller the market, the smaller the production run, the higher the cost price per unit, with all the implications that has right on down the chain to the consumer.

And then, like
I have mentioned a couple of times before, the demand for original nylon flight jacket has jumped right up in the past few years by collectors
everywhere for some reasons, and God knows why.

Any number of reasons, I'm sure. A lot of the original collectors got into A2s because they lived near a base, or their dad / uncle/ cool odler guy down the road was a pilot and had one... for a later generation, the Ma1 will have taken their place. Later generations may have different film references too (Top Gun and the likes - that Tom Cruise vehicle certainly did a lot for the G1's popularity in the eighties; I believe they also wore MA1s in it? Can't recall. Awful film.). The MA1 was huge in many youth subcultures here in the Eighties (goths, punks and skinheads all wore 'em), and as the decade wore on they crept into mainstream fashion. Doesn't seem unlikely that many people who wore an Ma1, even a fashion adaptation of the same, would eventually develop an interest in the military roots of the design and thus the original jackets, much as many of the hardcore of today's rockabilly scene here in the UK were the first generation psychobilly kids of the Eighties / early Nineties. Storses for courses, an aw that.

Yes...but only in the L-2B. It was 1961 for the MA-1. Actually, Alpha didn't have a 1960 or 1961 contract for either jacket. The first orange liners appeared in the '61 Skyline MA-1s and the 1960 Skyline L-2Bs.

They do play fast and loose with the "military contractor" bit in their marketing. The Wested refernece above rings true: to read their site, you'd think they'd supplied all the Indy jackets for all the films, as opposed to just Raiders... I'm sure that's not a deliberate misstatement on the part of either company, but the truth can sometimes get lost in the marketing hyperbole.

Which brings me to another point. Being a hard-core original nylon junkie, I'm more than a little frustrated by the unadulterated crap Alpha writes on their site in an effort to puff their various products. I despair that much of their advertising copy is taken as gospel and it becomes inextricably woven into internet jacket folklore. Before you know it, people are scouring the web trying to find the most accurate reproduction of the blue MA-1 that Coast Guard glider pilots wore during the invasion of Normandy.

I can totally see why they do it, given that they are primarily aiming at a mainstream makret that don't care so much about the details as do the likes of us... people for whom an MA1 is an MA1 is an MA1, whether it's green, blue or red with white polka dots. Confusing that market with excess terminology for different models, when to the casual observer the only real difference is colour, isn't probably the best way to sell. Hell, even our favourite 90s Replica Series B15s were marketed as the "B15C/D" and you chose either blue or green...

That all said, I agree entirely with your frustration. If you haven't already and you want to torture yourself, have a gander at the Wikipedia page on the MA1. Even to my inexpert eyes it's bobbins.

I think I was with you up to the very last part. I would tend to believe anything that John Chapman says about vintage jackets...of any kind...and I would tend to believe anything I read on the Goodwear site. But maybe you were talking about the movie advertising.

ELC make a big deal on their website out of the connection, to the effect that they 'supplied the jackets' for the film. The actual facts were that John supplied the principals' 'hero jackets', while ELC supplied the jackets forf crowd scenes / extras / et cetera. Some folks round here felt that ELC had been dishonest and had deliberately implied that all the jackets were theirs. I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, though I can see why they did it the way they did. There was a thread about it on here way back when, though the whole issue died off pretty quick when the film reputedly turned out to be rather weak (can't comment directly, not seen it yet myself. Been burned by George Lucas once too often...).

I am not sure if Rickson makes the best quality nylon repros on the market but their alpaca lined jackets like N-1, B-10 and B-15s are not the best in terms of material used and that's for sure.

Pity. What are you comparing them against? I remember Ken Caulder saying back when Aero were offering both their own B10 and the Pike Bros one that he considered the latter to be a bit 'over-engineered' and their own a bit more accurate. Can't comment on that as I haven't had the chance to compare like for like, though it does seem plausible that you could make a jacket now that is more durable but at the expense of 100% accuracy (c/f the debate over Aero's 'improvement' to A2 knits). I wonder is this the case here? Personally I'd compromise certain very subtle details for durability, but I buy jackets to wear rather than collect (so I tell myself anyhow.... ).

Actually, this might be better in a dedicated thread, but I'd love to see a direct comparison between all the nylon/ other non-leather jacket repros on here. Sometimes hard to find out even who does certain models, and we don't often see all the Buzz options over here (I get the impression that ELC don't import Buzz models which replicate stuff in their own range. Entirely understandable from a business pov, if limiting for the consumer).

 

[Atticus Finch]

And then, like I have mentioned a couple of times before, the demand for original nylon flight jacket has jumped right up in the past few years by collectors everywhere for some reasons, and God knows why.

I haven't noticed a huge increase in the price of vintage nylon, but I have noticed a decrease in its availability. If the price of original nylon is increasing, I do so hope the trend continues. I've got a bunch of jackets I'd happily sell...at the right price...and I've already got my eye on a new Grady White!

AF

 

[Seb Lucas]

Vintage is out for me - I need a large and long size. Are nylon jackets still made for the military or is it all nomex and is that stuff worse or better? I'm happy to buy Army issue if it's still well made. Or are there companies other than Alpha that make good nylon MA1's?

 

[Doctor Strange]

I've never handled them myself, but G&B's nylon jackets are probably as well made as their leathers:

http://www.gibson-barnes.com/dept-293831/Flight-Jackets.html

 

[Doctor Damage]

I've never handled them myself, but G&B's nylon jackets are probably as well made as their leathers:

http://www.gibson-barnes.com/dept-293831/Flight-Jackets.html

Their MA1 jackets are available in both Regular and Long lengths, which I haven't seen elsewhere.

 

[bn1966]

I've got a G&B MA1 in the Teal Blue (their lightweight flight satin). Came up long in length & sleeves in XL, body quite generous shoulders & pit to pit. Well made, though I don't like their chunky knits or the mat appearance of the nylon used. Mine had to be shortened in length (rear of jacket 3") to give it the look I like (jacket was originally same length back and front & didn't look 'right' to my eye). Sleeves were massively long on me (regular XL) and had to lose a few inches to fit. Knits felt 'sloppy' and had to have elastic thread added to give a 'crisp' look to sleeves.



Could post pictures of jacket since alterations were made, jacket is now IMO much more wearable & I feel less like a sack of spuds with it on.