Leather jackets at the mall, lol

[Jack Burton]

Since I'm in the market for a new leather coat, I figured I take a trip to the mall just to see what they have. Keep in mind, I go to malls about once a year as I generally despise all the crap they sell. Anyways, once a year is enough to reaffirm my predisposition.

I hadn't been into a Wilson's in 15 years and evidently I wasn't missing anything. While I would not say Wilson's made great or even good jackets, they at one time did make half-decent jackets. Not anymore, they carry the thin Chinese crap now which makes a 1980s K-mart jacket look good. The store doesn't even smell like leather, like it did 20 years ago. All the coats were around $100 which made me wonder why they would target that market. At least put some quality into the coats and charge $300.

We have no "real" department stores left in Philadelphia, so stores like Macy's carry the same crap as Wilson's. Burlington Coat factory's selection was downright hideous. I'm at a loss as to how these places can sell this stuff.

I also learned that "Faux leather" (plastic) jackets seem to be "in" now too:eusa_doh:. It's really a sad state of affairs and for your own sanity, I suggest you stay away from your local mall

 

[Edward]

I should imagine the reason that they have chosen to target the $100 market rather than making something a bit better and charging a bit more is that they have identified that they can make more money, that way. There are an awful lot of folks out there very keen to buy a jacket but either unwilling or unable to spend more than $100 on it. Actually, buying cheaper, lesser garments makes sense from the POV of mainstream fashion, which is all about disposable wardrobe that will be worn for a season and then replaced. Not my bag (and of highly dubious environmental standing), but there you go.

Rather a shame for China, yet again, to be considered synonymous with low quality goods. I've seen manys a product from China that would be the rival of anything the rest of the world can produce. Still, while labour remains cheap enough there for the west to produce all its low end, disposable fashions there, this misperception will no doubt continue. The same thing happened with Japanese goods once upon a time.

Regarding faux leather, I'm not surprised that is popular. It gives something of the look of leather at a cheaper price again, which is obviously what a certain market values. I've seen some very impressively crafted faux-leather items aimed at the vegetarian market, but those are priced at a higher level and not aimed at mainstream fashion.

 

[Jack Burton]

There are an awful lot of folks out there very keen to buy a jacket but either unwilling or unable to spend more than $100 on it.

Unwilling yes, but I have trouble believing that they are "unable" since it doesn't correlate with other clothing prices nor inflation over the past two decades. There have always been cheap leather jackets available. What's disturbing is the quality of today's "average" jacket is comparable to the quality of yesterday's "cheap" jacket. IMO, people aren't spending less, they're just buying higher quantities of lower quality items.

Actually, buying cheaper, lesser garments makes sense from the POV of mainstream fashion, which is all about disposable wardrobe that will be worn for a season and then replaced. Not my bag (and of highly dubious environmental standing), but there you go.

That makes sense.

Rather a shame for China, yet again, to be considered synonymous with low quality goods. I've seen manys a product from China that would be the rival of anything the rest of the world can produce. Still, while labour remains cheap enough there for the west to produce all its low end, disposable fashions there, this misperception will no doubt continue. The same thing happened with Japanese goods once upon a time.

Without going to far OT here, I know China can produce fine products when they want to but as far as we're concerned, they just usually don't because the U.S. market is all about cheap and disposable. Sizing is definitely an issue though, especially in Women's clothing. I do not know if things get lost in translation or if it's a racial difference in build, but the fit and sizing of Asian-made clothing can be strange.

I'm one of those people who sees things like NAFTA and the China trade bills as detrimental to us in the long run, not to mention how many bonds we've sold to them. And still, I can't buy a Cuban cigar.

I've seen some very impressively crafted faux-leather items aimed at the vegetarian market, but those are priced at a higher level and not aimed at mainstream fashion.

Lol, why don't they tan potato skins or something?

 

[scottyrocks]

The 'average' quality, or what is acceptable to 'most' people, has taken a serious downward slide in the last few years.

I live in the land of the mall. Aside from an occasional Brooks Brothers, the quality of clothing in general has declined just about everywhere. And since mostly all of it has done so, it has become the new norm.

 

[apba1166]

We have no "real" department stores left in Philadelphia, so stores like Macy's carry the same crap as Wilson's. Burlington Coat factory's selection was downright hideous. I'm at a loss as to how these places can sell this stuff. :

There's always BOYDS, some nice jackets there. Nordstrom's at KoP has a few pricey designer things. But you are right. Huge metro area, slim, if any, pickings.

 

[Pompidou]

One mall near me used to have a store totally dedicated to leather, but it closed a few years ago. If this mall isn't careful, it'll be nothing but pretzel bite vendors, oriental import shops and cell phone kiosks in a couple years. It's hardly worth leaving the internet when it comes to shopping these days.

 

[fedoralover]

There's always BOYDS, some nice jackets there..

And back in the 50s they REALLY had some nice jackets, check out this vintage one I got a while back. Also, on the main subject I just saw some Tommy Bahama leather jackets that were $450. and they were so pieced together they looked like they just took a bunch of scraps and sewed them together. I've bought a few jackets from the 60s from some thrift stores and while the style isn't my favorite, they were still made in the USA and were very high quality. Leather jackets from the Malls look so bad these days that even the 70s, made in Korea jackets look good by comparison.

fedoralover

Here's my vintage Boyds.

 

[Philalethes]

In Defense of Wilsons

While I agree that most mall jackets are junk, I think it is still possible to find some decent or even nice ones - even if it gets harder to do this every year.

In defense of Wilsons, while I think most of their jackets are probably not worth buying, I have been satisfied with my two purchases over the last year.

The first is an A-2 style produced last year. It is far from an accurate repro - in fact, it is really more A-2 "inspired", but it has features I like:

vintage brown cowhide that is surprisingly heavy and warm
zip-out Thinsulate lining
great pockets, including a zippered gun pocket
internal and external wind flaps

It is my go-to jacket on the occasions I am not dressing up, and it is currently my favorite to wear. Unfortunately, however, they no longer manufacture it: it was only made for last year.

The second is a suede "bomber"-style. The leather quality is not great, but I really like the color, and it works well for warm weather. It has some nice details like a partial bi-swing back. I wouldn't pay a lot of money for it, but for $45 I can't complain.

So, again, while I agree that quality standards are slipping, there are still some vestiges of quality out there in mall-land.

 

[Zombie_61]

Unwilling yes, but I have trouble believing that they are "unable" since it doesn't correlate with other clothing prices nor inflation over the past two decades. There have always been cheap leather jackets available.

Believe it. I don't know where you live, but here in southern California there are a lot of people still living check-to-check and barely able to make ends meet, especially with the current state of the economy and the high rate of unemployment. And all across the country sudden layoffs due to downsizing and/or business closures are still causing people to lose their homes, so even a "cheap" leather jacket is a luxury they can't afford.

 

[apba1166]

As to Boyds--that is a nice jacket, Fedoralover! In Philadelphia, there's a high-end men's store, Boyds, which is unrelated but always has some interesting fashion jackets.

 

[Jack Burton]

Believe it. I don't know where you live, but here in southern California there are a lot of people still living check-to-check and barely able to make ends meet, especially with the current state of the economy and the high rate of unemployment. And all across the country sudden layoffs due to downsizing and/or business closures are still causing people to lose their homes, so even a "cheap" leather jacket is a luxury they can't afford.

I think you missed my point. Somebody who's living paycheck to paycheck is not buying very much of anything besides food and living space. I'm referring to people who are buying clothing and what types of clothing they're buying. Total consumer spending is now above pre-recession levels, even in 2005 dollars. Accounting for population growth and inflation, we are back to around 2003 levels when it comes to per-capita retail sales. Personal expenditures on apparel as a percentage of income are also at record highs. People are buying clothing.

My main point is that for the longest time we had cheap, average and high-end jackets available. Those categories have all taken one step left as far as retail stores are concerned. Even a designer brand in a department store is only as good as yesterdays average jacket. It is odd considering most retail clothing has gone down in quality while it's price went up. Leather jackets have come down in quality and price which makes me wonder what the future holds for leather jackets. As previously mentioned, the general mindsets of "disposable" and "quantity, not quality", seem to be indicative of the leather goods offered in stores. Obviously the internet has had an impact too, as it has on all specialty items.

 

[John in Covina]

One thing is the decline in quality of the "average" available product. Usually we see some type of drop as a new 3rd world area is opened up to production of some type of goods like clothing shoes or auto parts.

After a time the quality may begin a rise but the price also climbs with those gains in quality. Sometimes, the buyers in the US are the drive behind improve quality. In auto parts some companies have their own Quality Control staff at the manufacturers plants to insure QC. However, some places in the US put all the pressure on price and that tends to lead to reduce quality in raw materials and or cutting corners in manufacturing processes. That can lead to big problems later on.

How many here have heard of the problems with drywall from China? There are big lawsuits over homes that have used these Chinese drywall sheets and found that over time the sheets were releasing bad odors because the "plaster" inside contained chemicals you would not find in the sheets from other producers. The people saved a lot of money selling it and those that used it but now it's time to replace it for free and that has wiped out any gain they may have seen.

 

[scottyrocks]

Used to be, manufacturers would raise prices to compensate for increased manufacturing expenses. Lately, I see a drop in quantity, as well as quality in many items. This is a trend that is in response to coming hyper-inflation. You can only charge just so much for a container of orange juice, for instance, before people say wtf and stop buying it. So the other alternative is to trim the quantity so prices dont have to rise as much.

Things like leather jackets, and most clothes, actually, go through the same process. Manufacturers need to cut expenses. They cant make a size 40 jacket smaller (actually they can but a jacket has to be worn whether theres a 40, 42, or 52 on the label, whereas a container of OJ can be consumed by itself, or with another one when they get really small) so they downgrade quality of materials, as well as workmanship, instead of quantity.

 

[Zombie_61]

I think you missed my point. Somebody who's living paycheck to paycheck is not buying very much of anything besides food and living space. I'm referring to people who are buying clothing and what types of clothing they're buying. Total consumer spending is now above pre-recession levels, even in 2005 dollars. Accounting for population growth and inflation, we are back to around 2003 levels when it comes to per-capita retail sales. Personal expenditures on apparel as a percentage of income are also at record highs. People are buying clothing.

My main point is that for the longest time we had cheap, average and high-end jackets available. Those categories have all taken one step left as far as retail stores are concerned. Even a designer brand in a department store is only as good as yesterdays average jacket. It is odd considering most retail clothing has gone down in quality while it's price went up. Leather jackets have come down in quality and price which makes me wonder what the future holds for leather jackets. As previously mentioned, the general mindsets of "disposable" and "quantity, not quality", seem to be indicative of the leather goods offered in stores. Obviously the internet has had an impact too, as it has on all specialty items.

Yes, I believe I did misinterpret your point. However, I think the point I made was closer to what Robert was referring to when he used the term "unable".

Getting back to your point, I agree completely. Regardless of the type of product, it seems very few manufacturers have been able to maintain the quality of their products over, say, the last 30 years or so; across the boards we consumers are paying more, but getting less for our money.

 

[apba1166]

Regardless of the type of product, it seems very few manufacturers have been able to maintain the quality of their products over, say, the last 30 years or so; across the boards we consumers are paying more, but getting less for our money.

Decades ago when they focused on keeping inflation down and started with the Consumer Price Index, quality was left out of the equation. I found that laughable. The price might have been seemingly low for a comparable product or service---but if you wanted someone who knew what they were doing, or a product or service that was made or performed to a certain standard, anyone with their eyes open in the real world realized inflation was rampant.

 

[Edward]

Unwilling yes, but I have trouble believing that they are "unable" since it doesn't correlate with other clothing prices nor inflation over the past two decades. There have always been cheap leather jackets available. What's disturbing is the quality of today's "average" jacket is comparable to the quality of yesterday's "cheap" jacket. IMO, people aren't spending less, they're just buying higher quantities of lower quality items.

In my experience that's certainly true of some demographics, but honestly I've seen an awful lot of folks out there who are buying the cheapest, most low end stuff because they genuinely can't afford more. My local Sainsburys caters to a very wide demographic; it wouldn't be the first time I saw a woman in there doing the weekly shop with a calculator, adding each item up as it went into the basket. I think we jacket hounds do often forget just how little many folks do live in nowadays.

Modern fashion definitely does emphasise quantity over quality, though. It seems to me even more so for women: whereas you or I or Brad Pitt can wear the same suit to everything, pity the woman who wears the same dress to two functions running....

Without going to far OT here, I know China can produce fine products when they want to but as far as we're concerned, they just usually don't because the U.S. market is all about cheap and disposable.

That is exactly it. The bottom line is that, whatever they or anyone else likes to think, China has for some years now been a capitalist economy. They'll design, manufacture and sell whatever the customer wants.

Sizing is definitely an issue though, especially in Women's clothing. I do not know if things get lost in translation or if it's a racial difference in build, but the fit and sizing of Asian-made clothing can be strange.

Yes, the Chinese, as most people in South East Asia in my experience, tend as a rule to be somewhat slighter than we do, and this is reflected in the sizing and cut of garments. Chinese ladies tend to be not only smaller overall, but slightly smaller in the bust and hips relative to the waist than would be the average norm in the West. Chinese men also tend not to carry all their weight around the middle, unlike so many of us! lol That does seem to be in the process of changing year on year, though. In downtown Beijing, and many other Chinese cities, you'll see the American fast food chains are crowded - KFC, McDonalds, the lot; combine this with 'Little Emperor Syndrome', and there's a whole generation of fat little Chinese kids on the way. I also notice them getting taller.... when I first taught out there in 2006, there would be maybe one kid in the class my height. Now there are usually half a dozen of the boys out of 150 who are six foot and over at the age of twenty.

As well as average body shape, the letter-based sizing system is also an issue here, as I suppose it's based on localised average notions. I'm a fairly average size myself (typically about a 38w, 42-44 chest, 5'10"), but depending upon garment and brand in the UK alone I vary between a medium and a large. In US clothes, which I tend to find are much baggier in cut, especially in, say, T shirts, I would normally be a smaller medium, or even a small. In China, I'm typically an XL or XXL.... heh.

Lovely. I have of late really come to admire this style of jacket. Actually, since I bought a B15 and found its slash pockets to be often more useful and flattering than the patch pockets on an A2... When finances improve sufficiently, I might just buy an Aero Happy Days in black. I find I "need" a black leather jacket in a non-MC style, and one of these would be a nice mix in the wardrobe. Alongside, of course, a black 30s halfbelt. Maybe the HD in medium horse, for warmer days than the FQHH halfbelt..... hmm....

 

[John in Covina]

Used to be, manufacturers would raise prices to compensate for increased manufacturing expenses. Lately, I see a drop in quantity, as well as quality in many items. This is a trend that is in response to coming hyper-inflation. You can only charge just so much for a container of orange juice, for instance, before people say wtf and stop buying it. So the other alternative is to trim the quantity so prices dont have to rise as much.

fftopic: As an aside: some time back ground coffee in the can went from being a pound (16 ounces) and over time has dropped to now if you go out to buy the "pound can" it is only 12 ounces. The odd thing is the can doesn't seem smaller unless you were to find an old 16 oz can. There is perceived value trickery going on here. Similar things have happened to candy bars but there was a backlash I think.

For me at my age I can recall much lower prices for many items and it interferes with the pleasure of some purchases. I have a hard time with a six pack of beer that is $9.99 or more no matter how wonderful it is.

 

[CR141]

I have a Wilsons leather bomber style jacket that I bought 20+ years ago. It has held up very well and I've been happy with it. Recently I was in their store and was appalled at the quality of the jackets they sell now. I suppose they would be ok for someone that's not familiar with higher end products made now, but not me. Of course I was comparing their products to my Schott 141.

As the saying goes, "you get what you pay for"



Cheers
Bob

 

[ron521]

As recently as the mid-90's, I've bought Wilson's motorcycle jackets which were very well made, and of excellent quality leather...but not for $100, more like $350 even then, and well worth it.
I currently own a 1982 Berman's brown leather "bomber" jacket, and a couple of older Wilson's motorcycle jackets, which were very well made. Sad to say, such items cannot be found anymore in the mall.
A few weeks ago, I was browsing in a leather store in Denver's famous 16th Street Mall, (actually a large section of uptown which is closed to traffic). Overheard another customer looking at tags and musing to himself "where can you get a jacket made in the U.S. anymore?" I happened to be wearing a U.S. Wings jacket and I spoke up and said "From these guys"...he was mightily impressed with the jacket and the price I told him I paid, less than many of the imported jackets in the store we were in.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I just got a near new 1950's style leather jacket by GAP form a charity store for $20. It is really well made and heavy. Yep, it's made in China but it is as well constructed as some of my custom bike jackets from here. I am surprised. I have never owned anything by GAP before and know nothing about them. Are they not a mall store?