Leather jacket question

[Rabbit]

I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but could someone please explain to me what bloody sense does measuring the sleeve like on the photo below makes...

...and why exactly is this wrong?

I mean, if you put a 25" inch pole inside the sleeve of the jacket above, 1" of it would still stick out, any way you go about it, wouldn't it? So how is that sleeve 25" long, exactly?

I think I can explain that. I just hope my explanation won't be even more confusing. Seriously, the sleeve measurement is a bit of a mess, no matter which way you look at it.

The first problem is that unlike the measurements for chest, waist, shoulder and back, the sleeve measurement is not at all a clear-cut thing. It seems to me that the correct way, if you want to be technical, is the method illustrated and described at the HPA site which, incidentally, I think is among the best organized sites:
https://www.historypreservation.com/measuring-jackets

However, most sellers don't use that method. I guess the only solution is to simply measure it one way and specify the method when you provide the measurement. If you know the method, it doesn't really matter which one was used.

The methods are the two you just illustrated, and the HPA one:

1) measuring by following the outer sleeve curvature (your pic #1)
2) measuring in a straight line while leaving the sleeve in its naturally curved position (your pic #2)
3) measuring in a straight line, straightening out the upper part of the sleeve just a little, and sort of extrapolating the sleeve curvature of the lower part of the sleeve (HPA)


Now, what should be our yardstick for sleeve length, anyway? I would say the most reliable yardstick of what sleeve length we really need derives from the shirt sleeve measurement, which is a half arm span measurement (half the shoulder width plus sleeve length). Since shirts have no internal construction, it's easy enough to measure the exact arm span for this type of garment. In order to apply this measurement to jackets, you'll have to add the half measurement of the shoulder width to the sleeve measurement to get the half arm span.
You have to decide how far you want the sleeve to extend beyond the wrist (the point where the skin makes a crease when bending the wrist sideways).
You'll add whatever extra amount to cover the wrist that you're comfortable with. For me, it's zero for suit jackets, 1/4"-1/2" for shirt sleeves and flight jackets (no tunneling for me), and about 3/4" for overcoats and foul weather leather jackets. Add more for motorcycle jackets.


Now, back to the methods of measuring the jacket sleeve.
The equivalent to a shirt sleeve measurement (shirt sleeves straighten easily) and therefore the most reliable would seem to be method #3 (HPA), from experience. It seems that this method neither over- nor underestimates the actually required length.

Method #1 is fine, but it actually overestimates the sleeve length, so if you rely on that measurement and don't know that this method was used, the sleeve may turn out to be shorter than you expected. Why? In theory the sleeve curvature should correspond to the natural curvature of the relaxed arm, but in practice it seems that the jacket sleeve is curved just a little more than the relaxed arm itself (relaxed meaning slightly bent at the elbow).
Method #2 underestimates the sleeve length because both the jacket sleeve and your arms have a natural curvature when held in a relaxed position.
Method #3 is the closest to the shirt sleeve measurement because unlike #2, it doesn't get fooled by the more pronouced curvature towards the end of the sleeve (it's the same on suit jackets and outerwear). This method should yield a measurement somewhere in between #1 and #2.

I think #1 is quite popular and often thought of as the right way of measuring the sleeve because it's the method that tailors use. Technically speaking, it's the most accurate measurement because you can replicate it most accurately, but it doesn't fully correspond to the actually required length as determined by your arm length. It's still possible to mess up that measurement, too, by measuring it on the hanging garment, for instance.

#2 seems to have the advantage that you can't mess it up. Or can you? There's still the issue of where the tape should end, since the sleeve ends at an angle, going by this method. Not really an issue with those tight knit cuffs, but certainly with suit sleeves or leather cuffs.

#3 is probably not very popular because you have to know exactly what you're doing.

Let me know if this was of any help.

 

[Dagenham Dave]

I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but could someone please explain to me what bloody sense does measuring the sleeve like on the photo below makes...

...and why exactly is this wrong?

I mean, if you put a 25" inch pole inside the sleeve of the jacket above, 1" of it would still stick out, any way you go about it, wouldn't it? So how is that sleeve 25" long, exactly?

My hunch is most people measure the "incorrect" way. Sleeve measurements are usually ballpark things when buying. Since seeing the proper way, I try to do it accordingly, but it's a lot harder, and I wouldn't have known about it had it not been illustrated here. An even bigger issue is the back length when the front of the jacket is exposed below the back when measuring the back. Many people include "the dip" so the actual back length is shorter than specified.

Isn't it just about consistency between you and the seller? I send those measuring illustrations to the jacket sellers, just to be sure they are measuring the same way I am, so I know the sleeve will be long enough.

When I sent them to the guys in Japan when buying my Lee 101J Denim Jacket (1946 Model), they sent me this back:



So I knew exactly what I was getting.

 

[Monitor]

Rabbit, thank you for the detailed and super informative reply.

I agree about the three methods, but I really think the first method you've listed, measuring by following the outer sleeve curvature, should be abandoned when it comes to leather jackets. With leather, we all agree that longer sleeves are better. Leather gets creased, perhaps even shrinks a bit with time... So even what might initially seem like a longer sleeve will most likely

But other than that, I mean, most people will measure their arm from the top of the shoulder straight down to the wrist. This may not the most correct method to go about measuring ones arm, but it's the best most people can come up with at home, without having themselves professionally measured and it's something leather jacket makers should really start taking into consideration. Let's say someone measured their arm to be 26" long, most people will tell the manufacturer they need sleeves at around 26" of length but if the manufacturer is using the 1th method of measuring sleeves, the sleeves will probably turn out to be too short.

Another thing I don't get about the first method is, classic motorcycle jackets like the Perfecto for example tend to have really baggy sleeves that are triangle shaped, and you can get couple of additional inches of sleeve length by following the outer curvature of the sleeve, just from the way the sleeve is shaped... But that doesn't in any way represent the actual length of the sleeve.

What Dagenham Dave said, it's all about the inconsistency between the maker and the customer but considering that the 99% of the business, say, Aero is getting comes from people that probably never saw a tailor in their lives, some of the proper tailoring methods perhaps need to be revised.

 

[Rabbit]

I agree with you, Monitor, about the first method being deceiving. Method #2 (the straight measurement) is probably the easiest way to get an approximation. Either way, the sleeve length measurement is tricky to communicate.

I've bought lots of vintage tailored clothes off eBay and I got the impression that method #2 is commonly used by sellers. As for leather jackets selling on eBay, I couldn't say.

If you want to communicate with sellers about the method, here's a link showing method #2 on a suit jacket. If you want to make sure about #2, you have to arrive at an agreement about where to place the tape because the cuff hem is slanted (except, as I said, on knit cuffs where it doesn't make much of a difference):
http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/clothing/style-tips/how-to-measure-a-jacket/
It's easy enough for a seller to assume that his own way of measuring is sort of the standard just because he's been doing it for so long.

If #2 is taken from a hanging garment, you can easily foul it up, too. Since it may be more convenient for sellers to do so, I'd make sure about that detail.

Estimating the required sleeve length by taking a body measurement from shoulder to wrist is hit and miss, but I don't doubt that many people do it that way. It's much better to have someone else measure the half arm span by measuring from the center of the neck to a point at the outermost shoulder, such as the outer point of the shoulder blade which you can clearly identify, then down the arms with the elbow just slightly, naturally bent. Then you can account for a jacket's shoulder width. If the shoulder width isn't accounted for, the sleeve length will be hit and miss anyway. Wider shoulders on foul weather leather jackets with a roomy cut (say, 18" instead of 17", or 9" versus 8.5" half measurement) will effectively add some length to the sleeve (here: 1/2"), compared to tighter fitting models.
Of course, it's easier to take the half arm span measurement off a shirt, taking into account where the shirt cuff ends.

I think it might be worthwhile for professional vendors to illustrate their methods of taking measurements. The HPA site is a beautiful example. As it is, the inconsistencies of taking measurements are pitted against the half knowledge of customers - who are not be blamed, because the only way to find out is by trial and error, and by paying for it.

Perhaps vendors prefer to "keep it simple" - the presentation of measurements on their websites, I mean - because giving too much information can be confusing unless you're familiar with the problems of taking measurements.
The back length of flight jackets is one of those seemingly never-ending issues where buyers sometimes manage to confuse themselves. I'm referring to the irritating practice of including the collar and including or excluding the waistband for the back length measurement. It easily gets complicated.
I tried to illustrate something which might add further to the confusion here in the Fits of Aero A2 lineup (go to my second post, #17). It's an attempt to show that 1930s-40s flight jackets were designed to hug the narrowest section of the torso, the natural waist, and that just by changing from 40s trousers to modern cut jeans, the same jacket can fit differently at the waist section.

 

[dan_t]

I know it may seem excessive, but this is how I get around the conundrum.....
caveat emptor

 

[Guppy]

My advice is, you're young. You don't have a lot of money. A high end jacket is not what you need to invest in now. If you're like most 18 year olds, you will "fill out" over the next few years, and the size you are now probably won't fit in 10 or 15 years, or even less than that.

There's nothing wrong with a lower end jacket that you find at the mall. If you haven't had a high end jacket yet you won't know what you're missing, and won't mind it. If you find a great deal on a used jacket from a better maker, that fits well, and is in good shape, buy it, but don't spend more than a paycheck on it. Otherwise Wilson is ok.

I know Schott has a great reputation, but I find that the quality of them varies quite a bit from one to the next. Some have leather that feels thick and heavy and substantial, while others feel lighter. Like the difference between a sheet of paper and a sheet of cardboard. I don't know whether it's the model or the year they made it, or what. A good Schott is great, but a mediocre Schott is about the same as Wilson, if you ask me.

You can save a lot buying used on eBay or here, but not being able to try it on before buying is a risk. If you don't like the fit, you can try to sell it again, or maybe make alterations. But either way, you'll spend more than you think trying to find The One.

When I was 26, I bought a nice leather biker jacket made by a company called The Real Deal, in Cleveland, at a motorcycle show for $225. It was perfect, exactly the style I was looking for, with thick heavy black naked cowhide that felt like armor. I wore it for 10 years and it was fantastic and beautifully broken in. Then it got stolen, and ever since then I have never been able to find it's equal. I've tried Schott, Langlitz, Aero, Vanson, and others, and while they're all great, none are exactly what I lost, and all of them cost several times what I spent on what was, to me, The One. I even tried another Real Deal, but I guess they just don't make them like they used to. My point being, if you find just the right thing and fall in love with it, it need not be expensive in order to be priceless to you.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I know it may seem excessive, but this is how I get around the conundrum.....
caveat emptor

Not sure i follow what you mean. Is the sleeve 26 or 27.5 inches from your view? I would go with the latter. I've always assumed that you measure a sleeve by running the tape along the outside from the shoulder seam.

 

[dan_t]

That's the whole point of the post Seb.
I shift all of the decision on to the potential purchaser. I could say either 26, or 27.5, but could be equally correct or wrong.
This way, the buyer has enough info to make an informed decision & I cannot be held accountable for providing misleading info.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I get it now. Sorry I was slow. I get the point of the thread; what I didn't get is that you did that with two tapes in a single photo. I've never shown the measurements I simply list them and I only own one tape. This is a lot more work but a lot better customer service. I can't imagine all that many sellers begin that helpful.