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Learning to Dance

Paisley

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,439
Location
Indianapolis
Frustrated? Not Progressing? Read This.

Sometimes dancers get to a certain level and stop progressing. This situation has various causes. Of course, if you keep doing the same thing you've been doing, you'll get the same results.

You'll often hear "practice, practice, practice." This is true--but if you're doing the wrong thing when you practice, all you're doing is reinforcing bad habits. For example, I have one partner who lets his arms go straight and bends his shoulders forward on 1, 2, 7 and 8 every time. He could practice until doomsday without moving beyond a basic level. He seems frustrated by his inability to lead anything but very simple moves and he tires quickly. I gave him a tip on posture and frame, but as they say, you can lead a horse to water...

Possibly, the fastest cure for this is to take some private lessons. If cost is an issue, see if you can schedule a very small class with a few friends. I was once in a class with only eight people and shaped up pretty quickly. (Making videos that were critiqued in front of the whole class was a big motivator, too.)

Think about re-taking some lower-level classes. When you're a beginner, there's a lot to learn and it's easy to miss little things that are important. Even though I've been dancing for eight years and consider myself advanced, I still take intermediate classes now and then and always learn something. I recently stayed as a guest for a beginner class because they needed more followers, and learned something.

Some other ways of solving this sort of problem would be making a video of yourself dancing and comparing it to a video made with professionals doing the same kind of dance with basic steps. You could also ask some advanced dancers for tips. If you start hearing the same tip again and again, it's probably valid. Then you can practice to reinforce a new, better habit. Check yourself to avoid falling into your old, bad habits.

I see quite a few couples who rarely dance with others and reach a plateau at a low-intermediate level. The solution is simple: dance with other partners. You'll be forced to lead or follow instead of making up for one another's bad habits. Guys, if you dance with a skilled follower and she doesn't know what you're doing, it's not her shoes, it's not the floor, it's not the song, it's your leading.

I'm buggo on leading and following. Yet I've had teachers who didn't even teach it--they just taught footwork. This is no more useful than a single shoe. If your teacher doesn't teach things like frame, tension, leverage, weight placement, counterbalance, I recommend you get another instructor. If there's no other instructor available in the kind of dance you're learning, I suggest you find an instructor who does a good job teaching frame and leading and following, and take their beginner classes in whatever dance they teach. (Go on a chat board or to various dances and ask around to find someone good.) Leading and following is done mostly with the upper body. Cha-cha frame feels like east coast frame; Argentine tango like balboa; west coast is similar to lindy. The holds vary, but the principles are the same. I think that even an aspiring lindy hopper who takes ballroom tango to learn frame and leading or following would benefit--and learn lindy frame more easily for it. It's like taking up one instrument after learning another. This is something my best friend, a music teacher, suggested if someone is getting frustrated learning, say, the piano.

Another suggestion: taking up a different dance. Watch Dancing with the Stars or another show where people learn different dances, and you'll see that they're much better at some dances than others. A few years ago, bull rider Ty Murray did a respectable lindy with just a week's instruction from a ballroom dancer who learned along with him. Doing a respectable lindy under those circumstances is really outstanding--he had the aptitude for it. Although Ty worked hard at every dance, he didn't do nearly as well at some of the others. Same instructor, same effort, but different results because his natural abilities.

My best friend also suggested trying a different instructor or teaching method if you're frustrated. Probably, few teachers (besides my very honest friend) have various teaching methods or will recommend going to another teacher. (Long ago, my piano teacher let me flounder for four years while telling my mother I could be a concert pianist if I'd just practice. Right--at a concert for the hearing impaired.) So you'll have to use your own judgment. If you don't like your teacher, if she tells you to practice when you're already frustrated from practicing, and above all, if you're not learning, go elsewhere. Go to a club, find people whose dancing you like, and ask who they learned from. At least you'll get a teacher who is good at teaching *somebody.* In my limited experience, my best teachers were those who taught at clubs. I've had only one good teacher elsewhere--a ballet dancer. Of course, your results may vary.

Physical problems can limit you. When I first started dancing, I didn't know it, but I had two pinched nerves in my neck and back. I had a good, firm frame (I was too stiff to be limp) but my mid-back was killing me after I used a proper lindy stance. I eventually saw a chiropractor and got the problems worked out. A book I've found really useful for fixing aches and pains is Fix your Own Pain by Jolie Bookspan. An exercise in the book fixed my long-standing knee pain in a day. She also has a web site with lots of information. And I don't know if it will help you, but after I cut way back on eating starchy and sugary carbohydrates, most of my little aches and pains disappeared.
 

HepKitty

One Too Many
Messages
1,156
Location
Idaho
sorry this is kinda :eek:fftopic: but have question for the leads: I'm not a fabu dancer but hope to be someday, but i can at least follow. however there is one lead that I know who is so um strong that it's physically painful to dance with him. now he's an ok guy and can do some aerials (I do love getting tossed around!) and I don't want to hurt his feelings. but he tells me that I don't follow well and that I try to lead when really all I'm doing is trying to do is protect myself. how would you want to be told? I don't want to be rude, and I don't care to hurt...
 

Paisley

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,439
Location
Indianapolis
Generally, it's not good to give unsolicited advice to others. But if someone is causing you pain, there's nothing wrong saying something like "Your leading is too firm for me and it's making my shoulder hurt." Someone more advanced might give specific advice on leading more gently if he seems open to it.

You can also say "no, thanks" when he asks you to dance.

There's a thread called Dance Etiquette in the Observation Bar.
 

HepKitty

One Too Many
Messages
1,156
Location
Idaho
nice, thank you, I'll check out that thread. this guy doesn't seem to be receptive to constructive criticism, considering how he talks about some of the teachers and groups in this area...

back to the topic at hand, thank you for the advice on lessons. fortunately there are some new teachers in this area who are awesome, they teach all the good points you've all made :) I'm just sad that I didn't try to find lessons years ago
 

Paisley

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,439
Location
Indianapolis
Good leading is like speaking. Sometimes, what's needed isn't more volume, but better enunciation. In other words, it's important to use the proper motions when leading. If you're using sufficient leverage to get a good swingout, you don't need more leverage. And the lead shouldn't directly cause his partner to move her weight. Leading should be more of a signal for her to move her weight.
 

HepKitty

One Too Many
Messages
1,156
Location
Idaho
Paisley said:
Good leading is like speaking. Sometimes, what's needed isn't more volume, but better enunciation. In other words, it's important to use the proper motions when leading. If you're using sufficient leverage to get a good swingout, you don't need more leverage. And the lead shouldn't directly cause his partner to move her weight. Leading should be more of a signal for her to move her weight.

well said!
 

swinggal

One Too Many
Messages
1,386
Location
Perth, Australia
Marla said:
Paisley and reetpleat, you both give excellent advice and this discussion is really pertinent to my current question. How do you dance well with someone the first time you dance with them? A strong lead and a good frame for both partners is essential in this, it seems, but yet every time I dance with someone for the first time it isn't as fluid as with a regular partner. So how do you combat this?

You can't. I've been swing dancing for 11 years and now matter good you both are, it's rare that you click on the first dance. Once you get to know people better you adjust to compensate for their lead and style. Everyone is different. Some guys are very soft leads and can lead with a little finger, some use a fuller body lead, others you are stronger lead.

My two fav leads here at home are both very different. One is a able to move you without doing much...is quite amazing. The other uses a much stronger technique but is just as good. You won't always have good dances with everyone new, no matter how good you/they are. I think just relaxing and having fun is the most important thing. Puts you at ease an if the dance is awkward the first time, at least you have had fun and can can have a another go and get better each time.
 

Paisley

I'll Lock Up
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5,439
Location
Indianapolis
Pay Attention to a New Partner

I put the ideas about dancing with a new partner to the test tonight in a jack & jill (a contest where you're paired up randomly). I had three partners.

I'd danced with my slow-lindy partner a few times before. Even the first time we danced, we just clicked, and so it was tonight.

My medium-speed lindy partner and I never saw each other before. He was a good lead, and even though I made a couple of mistakes, we had a good dance. I think we were both kind of conservative since we'd never danced together before.

I danced to "Jump, Jive and Wail" with someone I hadn't danced with in a long time. Even though I intellectually knew his idiosyncrasies, my muscle memory for responding to them was gone. About halfway through, I got comfortable dancing with him again and started pulling out moves in a last-ditch effort to impress the judges, hoping they hadn't seen me bop him on the head. (Note to self: those balboa arm moves probably don't have a place in lindy.) The last half of the dance was good.

I think the only thing here that hasn't been addressed is how fast you can learn to respond to someone's dancing and vice versa. The third dance shows that even if you get off to a rough start, you can pay attention to your partner--a lot of attention--and things can only improve.
 

bunnyb.gal

Practically Family
Messages
788
Location
sunny London
Help from experienced dancers sorely needed!

I've been learning to dance for a little over a year now, mostly Ballroom/Latin, but also the odd swing/Lindy class as I would like to be able to dance to the music I love to listen to.

My problem is this - and I do have a wonderful instructor who does stress connection - very often I feel like the "following thing" is like a whole other language, and one I frustratingly seem unable to grasp, even if I've done the moves previously, and perfectly well, in a class. For this reason I've been going in what is probably a vicious circle where I can pile on the classes, no problem, but I avoid social dancing just because I feel so bloody awkward doing it!

I would very much like to know if any of you have gone through this, whether it's just a phase, and whether there's light at the end of the tunnel! Any thoughts/advice would be very much appreciated!
 

Paisley

I'll Lock Up
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5,439
Location
Indianapolis
Classes vs. Practice

Leading and following are, indeed, languages. It's how you communicate with your partner in a social dance.

Classes are different from social dancing. Particularly in beginner classes, a lot of people are just going through the motions instead of leading or following. You and your partner both know what's coming, so there's no need to communicate via leading and following. If you're not changing partners, it makes it worse. The difference between classes and social dancing is like reading some sentences out of a Russian language textbook versus going up to someone in Moscow and asking for directions.

Classes can only give you so much preparation; there's no substitute for experience. To learn faster from that experience, try some things I've suggested before: tape yourself dancing, dance with good partners and ask for feedback, focus on doing the basics well instead of learning a bunch of tricky moves, and wait for your partner to lead instead of anticipating moves.

You also have to practice frequently--at least once a week. Like any other language, you have to practice leading or following frequently or you forget it.
 

Chas

One Too Many
Messages
1,715
Location
Melbourne, Australia
  • Learn connection.
  • Dance with lots of different people.
  • Relax and concentrate.
  • Take a lesson series from a reputable instructor; there are lots of decent dancers who can't teach worth a fig but call themselves instructors. Avoid them.
  • Don't be afraid of looking goofy. As a beginner, you will. So don't worry about it, 'cause everybody takes a turn at looking goofy in public.
  • Don't be obsessed with learning a huge repetoire of moves; concentrate on fundamentals for at least the first couple of years.
  • Leather soles.
  • Smile!
 

dhermann1

I'll Lock Up
Messages
9,154
Location
Da Bronx, NY, USA
May I throw a pet peeve into the mix? (Or maybe I should start a whole new thread.) PLEASE don't try to do Lindy or Swing to Charleston music! If you wanna dance the Charleston, learn the Charleston! Or take a stab at Balboa. I have a number of friends here in NY who have gone nuts over Bal and while I haven't learned it yet, I've always thought it was a really cool dance.
 

Marla

A-List Customer
Messages
421
Location
USA
bunnyb.gal said:
My problem is this - and I do have a wonderful instructor who does stress connection - very often I feel like the "following thing" is like a whole other language, and one I frustratingly seem unable to grasp, even if I've done the moves previously, and perfectly well, in a class. For this reason I've been going in what is probably a vicious circle where I can pile on the classes, no problem, but I avoid social dancing just because I feel so bloody awkward doing it!

When following you have to trust your partner, even if you've never danced with him before! As you're dancing don't worry about whether the dance will go smoothly or if he's going to lead you into that-one-move-you're-not-so-good-at and try to anticipate it. Just have fun!
 

Marla

A-List Customer
Messages
421
Location
USA
dhermann1 said:
May I throw a pet peeve into the mix? (Or maybe I should start a whole new thread.) PLEASE don't try to do Lindy or Swing to Charleston music! If you wanna dance the Charleston, learn the Charleston! Or take a stab at Balboa. I have a number of friends here in NY who have gone nuts over Bal and while I haven't learned it yet, I've always thought it was a really cool dance.

This is my guilty pleasure. I love doing Swing and Lindy to Charleston music--but I only do it during private practice. It gets your heart rate up quickly!
 

bunnyb.gal

Practically Family
Messages
788
Location
sunny London
Thank you so much all for your advice on following - I do hope it is just a phase I'm going through and one day it will "click" (or that I'll have had my nose in that dictionary so long that the foreign language will make sense). The trust thing may be an issue...:rolleyes:
I shall try and force myself to go social dancing more often...
 

Chas

One Too Many
Messages
1,715
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Marla said:
lol Or... I should learn to do Charleston.

It's dead easy, Marla. I could teach you in about 5 minutes. You should know that there's two kinds of Charleston; uptown and downtown. Of course, partner Charleston is a different ballgame. Good Lindy dancers are a nickel a dozen, but I can count on the fingers of one hand how many really good partner Charleston dancers I've known in my travels.

This is a clip of some importance; partner Charleston with a breakaway; the genesis of Lindy Hop.:D :D :D
[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/22igp-ihYN4&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/22igp-ihYN4&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

Collegiate Shag. Easy in concept, but challenging to integrate w/ muscle memory. When it's done well, though, it's a killer diller.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6SGvd5tseZY&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6SGvd5tseZY&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]
 

Paisley

I'll Lock Up
Messages
5,439
Location
Indianapolis
Tips for Learning the Charleston

The Charleston is a staple. Swing dancers use it in lindy, East Coast, and as a solo dance. It's great to know it if there aren't enough partners: you can get up and do a solo dance. Most people don't, but I do, and I've gotten nothing but positive responses. If you're a lead, you can totally break away from your partner for a moment and do some fun solo moves. Now, for the tips:

Learn from somebody who knows the Charleston. This sounds obvious, but almost everyone I see teaching it on the floor is doing it wrong. If what they're doing involves a goose step, they're doing it wrong.

Take small, subtle steps when you're learning it. A big ol' step back and high forward kick don't look good, wear you out faster, and you're apt to kick or step on someone.

Maintain good posture and don't look at your feet. If you must look at your feet, use a mirror.

Once you've mastered the footwork, add the arms. Arm movements are too varied and too complicated to explain here, except for one thing: clap on two and four if you like to clap.

Add solo jazz movements from the Big Apple, Shim Sham, or any others you know.
 

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