Known examples of Steerhide A-2s during the WWII era?

[NowOrNever]

Does anyone know with any certainty that steerhide A-2 jackets were issued during WWII? I have only read conflicting accounts that known examples have been identified without further proof either way.

Eastman Leather Clothing offer a "House Label" A-2, in steerhide while their actual reproduction contracts are often available in a choice of hides. While this jacket seems very accurate overall, is steerhide the compromise for the sake of availability and cost?

I know there is tremendous debate regarding the virtues of various hides. I also accept that choice of hide is partly a personal matter. Neither can be said to be better than the other, just different for many reasons.

What though of the evidence regarding steerhide issued A-2's?

 

[majormajor]

Does anyone know with any certainty that steerhide A-2 jackets were issued during WWII? I have only read conflicting accounts that known examples have been identified without further proof either way.

Eastman Leather Clothing offer a "House Label" A-2, in steerhide while their actual reproduction contracts are often available in a choice of hides. While this jacket seems very accurate overall, is steerhide the compromise for the sake of availability and cost?

I know there is tremendous debate regarding the virtues of various hides. I also accept that choice of hide is partly a personal matter. Neither can be said to be better than the other, just different for many reasons.

What though of the evidence regarding steerhide issued A-2's?

This is what they say on AcmeDepot:

"While the official specification called for horsehide, and while most jackets probably were so made, there was a notable fraction of A-2's made of goatskin and perhaps other hides such as steer. Consultation with a number of independent leather scientists (not tanners or sales people) resulted in learning that once the hides have been processed it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between horse and steer; it can't be done visually, and a positive ID might well require expensive DNA testing."

Have a look here:

AcmeDepot

 

[NowOrNever]

Thanks for the input MajorMajor.

Yes... I have read that on the ACME pages, but yet to see any more references elsewhere.

 

[aswatland]

There is as far as I know no conclusive evidence to prove that any Wartime A2 contractors used steer hide for at least part of one of their contracts.

 

[Phantomfixer]

For me IMO, If i were a contractor to provide x amount of jackets to the Army Air Corps, and I ran short of horsehide in one line of production, BUT had steer in mass quantities in a civiliand line of products, I would dip into those steerhides supplies and make the production run of A-2s complete. Now, this purely speculation and can not be proved, on the other hand, you can't say that it did not happen. Just stiring the pot a little...

 

[Phantomfixer]

How many times have you seen a two piece back on an WWII A-2??? Not many but not zero either.....

 

[aswatland]

How many times have you seen a two piece back on an WWII A-2??? Not many but not zero either.....

Never on an issued Wartime A2.

 

[aswatland]

on the other hand, you can't say that it did not happen. Just stiring the pot a little...

Of course one can't definitely say steer wasn't used but what is lacking is conclusive evidence to say it was.

 

[Phantomfixer]

Of course, why would a manufacturer identify a non spec jacket or batch of jackets to the inspector? They wouldn't, or the inspector, cozy with management might turn a blind. Yes, I know what the specs were calling for....To say never would be finite, and debating manufacturing records from 70 years ago is anything but finite. Anything could have happened to get the job done. Yet it could have happened. Now I say could. As far as a two piece back? I have a book around here with crew photos; one crewmember, with art work has a two piece back. Was it a fab shop repair? I will scan it, when I find it. But again to say a company did not piece together a few hides to complete a contract order...if hides were running low. It could have happened at least once, the probability is very low, but still a probability.
What is the ratio of remaining examples/# of total made A-2s(WWII era only folks). What I am getting at, is we know what the mass produced main stream A-2 looked like. We do not know about the few that sqeaked by....

 

[442RCT]

As far as a two piece back? I have a book around here with crew photos; one crewmember, with art work has a two piece back. Was it a fab shop repair? I will scan it, when I find it. But again to say a company did not piece together a few hides to complete a contract order...if hides were running low. It could have happened at least once, the probability is very low, but still a probability.

I remember a poster who posted a photo of his dad in WW2 wearing an issue A-2 with a two piece back.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

A few WW2 vets here and there wore various styles of civilian leather jackets. You can always tell them for what they are..since they aren't correct to military spec. Now if someone comes up with an A2 having different construction than a dedicated spec issue jacket and with an original mil contract issue tag originally sewn on the liner...I might buy into the possibility. However..looking at hundreds of original WW2 A2s..I have never seen one.
HD

 

[PoohBang]

well then who's to say they never every made one out of elephant or alligator? Just cause we never see it doesn't mean they never did it right?

or...

maybe the reason we never see it is because they never did it in the first place....

 

[Phantomfixer]

twenty years ago people said A-2s were only made in horsehide, never, ever goatskin but now we know different......

 

[Phantomfixer]

You have looked at hundreds yet thousands were made. Again I bow and say yes, the hundreds of examples that I have scrutinized had one piece backs. But it could have happened. A mute point either way...as we will never be able to examine 100% of all the A-2s made or still around in grandpops closet.

 

[Dav]

I no nothing about the A2 to be honest, but if the contract was for horsehide and the manufacturer had run out an so substituted steer instead wouldn't the label still say horsehide? As the two are notoriously difficult to tell apart without reading the label how could you tell?
Just a passing thought.

 

[NowOrNever]

Thank you all for sharing your views on the possible use of steerhide.

Thank you Andrew (aswatland) for the prompt reply, I value your opinion since I know you have a deep knowledge of all aspects of original A-2s.
(I have enjoyed the photos and comments regarding your own wonderful jackets!)

Thanks also to Phantomfixer. I see the logic of your argument which is really why I was interested in actual known examples of steerhide A-2s.
It sounds as though you have examined many original jackets yourself.

Obvioulsy many serious collectors/ historians are still attempting to provide "hard evidence" either way. I would dearly love a conclusive answer, even if it were to find proof of very low numbers having been made!

HoosierDaddy you have given a very interesting slant on the topic. I suppose it is entirely possible that those civilain "cottage industry" made jackets, may have used steerhide or other leather. The leather available in war time England is perhaps another fascinating avenue to explore?

As it happens I did recently find a photograph of a "cottage industry" made A-2 clone, most likely worn by aircrew. I do not know which hide it was cut from, but it did have that wonderful aged apperance, so sought after in original jackets! Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Fletch]

Funny, I've seen about umpteen zillion pix of WW2 AAF crews, and maybe one guy in 100 is wearing a non-issue type of jacket (usually something with no knits). I've never seen anyone in those pix wearing an obvious copy of an A-2 - the A-2s all look like issue.

 

[Phantomfixer]

My point was, what could have happened not really what did happen. Anything was possible 70 years ago and not recorded. Never say never... I'm done beating this horse... come on that was funny!

 

[NowOrNever]

Fletch: Well I have not actually scrutinised a huge number of period photographs in regards to aircrew jackets... but I assume the vast majority would of course be of the standardised issued variety.

However I did find a photograph taken recently while the said jacket was having a repair undertaken. It is quite similar to an issued A-2, since it was made as a clone. I don't have much more background information on that jackets history though, but the company undertaking the repair seems to be quite knowledgable.

Phantomfixer: Thanks, I get your point. But no there is no excuse for "flogging a dead horse!" ;-)

 

[kampkatz]

As long as the jacket held up, who cared about what kind of hide it was made out of?