Keeping secrets while a craft dies out

[bendingoak]

Tony, that's a good attitude to have. I'm like you that was lucky that two gentlemen shared source and secrets with me to help move me along. I like you have experimented with materials and the knowledge given to me by others to form my own way of making hats. Heck I will always consider myself a student of the craft.

 

[DJH]

Good thing you fellas make hats. You and the other handful out there give us a lot of excellent choices for custom hats.

Agree 100%. Actually, from what I've seen quality hatmaking isn't dieing out anytime soon.

Other than the hatmakers here at FL (I have hats from both Art and Tony and love them both) it seems there are others all over the place that pop up from time to time.

I think that as long as the custom hat makers continue to produce great quality products at good prices, there is always going to be a market for them and new people will still want to get into the business - even if on a part time basis.

 

[Fletch]

"Keeping secrets while a craft dies out" ..is this meant to be the indictment it sounds to be?

Not in your case, Art. Your reputation is beyond reproach from what I hear on the Lounge.

Apprenticeships just don't exist with regularity in hatting so, like tonyb says, it's trial & error, heavy emphasis on error these days. I myself have helped and regularly help 3 other budding hatters and have no problem with that. I don't do it publicly though.

It's great that you're helping others out! But how do you mean not "publicly" - not on the web? Not in a public park? Not when anyone else is around?

There are a lot more reasons for some secrecy Fletch but I think the most important to me is that I keep what I've earned through sweat . Call it self preservation, selfishness, what ever you'd like but it has to be there to an extent.

I agree one has got to defend what amounts to one's trademark - for instance, your stylings and any techniques you've originated - especially if not legally protectable (and AIUI most of it isn't).

Where it gets questionable is when the craftsman begins thinking people only want to copy him, and takes his knowledge with him just because he can. Or because he believes everybody ought to have to work for it the way he did - and doesn't give a damn that the means and resources are gone. Or because he's Herman The German and wants to dictate how it's used - do what will sell, or the deal's off! Man, that story got me steamed - what could he possibly have had to lose?

More than once I have given advise to a newbie only to have it come back at me when they screw it up so, sometimes a bit of knowledge is a bad thing.

Funny how it could have such an effect on your rep. But I haven't been there myself, so I don't know.

At about the same time I was co owner of Vintage Fashion Expo and invited him to speak about Panama's ( paid of course) and his response was " I will NOT give up my secrets!!!" . I was stunned, I only asked him to speak about panama's , not reveal his innermost secrets.

Sounds like the kind of cat nobody can't tell nothin' - I know the type. Try and reassure them and it only makes things worse... [huh]

 

[majormoore]

I have given two people one a women and the other a man in the last three months , in my shop training to the best I could on hat making, even shared some info where to get this or that, one stayed 3 days and the other 1 full day, never charged a penny for it, I did ask alot of questions before and during the training of each, I wanted to know that they really wanted to make hats, and would step up and make the investment.

I have allowed several here on the FL to stop by and make a hat, or at least make most of it under my eye and my help every now and then on some hard parts to learn, so I can say I have shown alot of people the art of making a hat.

I am pleased with myself to help teach others some hat making skills. Hat making is trying to make a come back, even if we few hatters only have a few hundred miles from our shops that is our customer base, we are very proud when a customer buys a hat.

Major Moore

 

[Effingham]

BTW, I'd like to throw out one more thing.

From *one* "Tony B" to another "TonyB" -- nice name.


Tony B (the other one)

 

[navarre_au]

When I started in Watch & Clockmaking - it was at the time essentially a dead trade - secrecy amongst the tradespeople was - and still is legendary (Your catchcloth was just as much about covering the desk from view as it was for catching any dropped component).

Art your post - which I quote below brought a smile to my dial - its so true on so many levels.

There are a lot more reasons for some secrecy Fletch but I think the most important to me is that I keep what I've earned through sweat . Call it self preservation, selfishness, what ever you'd like but it has to be there to an extent. More than once I have given advise to a newbie only to have it come back at me when they screw it up so, sometimes a bit of knowledge is a bad thing.

An often quoted line is "The tricks of the trade" - these "tricks" are so often a catalogue of "sweat" - "tears" - "repeated failures" and damned hard yakka until that moment of enlightenment comes along and a new "secret" is added to ones repertoire.

There is almost a "code of honour" in respecting these secrets that you learn along your way to becoming recognised as a craftsman - for some its almost like "he who finishes with the most secrets wins"

I dont share my tricks\secrets easily - unless the person is someone I know that has done the hard yards - loves the trade for what it is - and isnt just a money loving grub looking for the shortcuts to accumulate more money - or on the other side - isn't an overenthusiastic puppy who you just know is going to bite off more then he can chew - in which case its better they dont know where to start at all - and problems are avoided.

 

[Art Fawcett]

I dont share my tricks\secrets easily - unless the person is someone I know that has done the hard yards - loves the trade for what it is - and isnt just a money loving grub looking for the shortcuts to accumulate more money - or on the other side - isn't an overenthusiastic puppy who you just know is going to bite off more then he can chew - in which case its better they dont know where to start at all - and problems are avoided.

Perfectly stated Sir, almost like you were/are in my mind.. boy, that's frightening..

 

[Fletch]

navarre, when you say someone has to "love the trade for what it is," what does that mean? Do you distinguish the trade from the craft - ie, just building/styling/finishing? is this why you wouldn't teach anyone who was starting from zero? Curiosity and enthusiasm not enough for you?

Seems to me that one of the requirements for a craftsman - an imposed requirement more than an inevitable one - is that he be willing to reinvent the wheel. Maybe lots of wheels. I don't see eye to eye with that if it's just for ritual, or tradition, or self-satisfaction. Maybe I come from a POV that over-values education and under-values training, but somehow I can't scrape up that last measure of respect for the guy who works like hell only to take it to the grave. He's putting something before the craft - perhaps the trade - perhaps some trade ethic I don't buy into.

You have a point that the newb ought to be able to satisfy the craftsman that he's not just a fly-by-nighter. But aren't there lots easier ways to make money? (I don't know - maybe if you're truly dedicated, you won't know that.)

The troubling bit for me is when the craftsman begins to envision his work as a thing in isolation. What what I do is not for the ages, not for love of anyone or anything, not even for the money finally, but for me - my work ethic, my self-regard, my debt to those who went before. If I open it up to you, I have to know you will do it in my way, for my reasons.

Sorry for all this interrogation, fellas, but what you say is fascinating and engages my curiosity.

 

[Fletch]

navarre, when you say someone has to "love the trade for what it is," what does that mean? Do you distinguish the trade from the craft - ie, just building/styling/finishing?

Is this why you wouldn't teach anyone who was starting from zero? Someone with your level of curiosity and enthusiasm is not enough for you - he's got to have gone thru what you've gone thru, or be willing to give you that personal assurance?

Seems to me that one of the requirements for a craftsman - an imposed requirement more than an inevitable one - is that he be willing to reinvent the wheel. Maybe lots of wheels. I don't see eye to eye with that if it's just for ritual, or tradition, or payback.

Maybe I come from a POV that over-values education and under-values training, but somehow I can't scrape up that last measure of respect for the guy who works like hell only to take it to the grave. He's putting something before the craft, as I see it. Thankfully, no one here seems to do that. (They probably wouldn't post here if they did.)

You have a point that the newb ought to be able to satisfy the craftsman that he's not just a fly-by-nighter. But aren't there lots easier ways to make money? (I don't know - maybe if you're truly dedicated, you won't know that.)

The troubling bit for me is if the craftsman begins to envision his work as a thing in isolation. When what I do is not for the ages, not for love of anyone or anything, not even for the money finally, but for me - my work ethic, my self-regard, my debt to those who went before. If I open it up to you, I have to know you will do it in my way, for my reasons.

Sorry for all this interrogation, fellas, but what you say is fascinating and engages me on all sorts of different levels.

 

[Art Fawcett]

Where it gets questionable is when the craftsman begins thinking people only want to copy him, and takes his knowledge with him just because he can. Or because he believes everybody ought to have to work for it the way he did - and doesn't give a damn that the means and resources are gone.

This I understand Fletch but the flip side of that is that nobody knows exactly when they are going to die and it's ALWAYS sooner than we are ready so I can understand it happening. I agree, we should pass on as much as we can before that point and I have in the masonry field. In THAT field I can honestly consider myself a master or journeyman and as such trained many apprentices. Some are still in the trade, some not. None however came out solely to take my living away.
In the hatting field I am still a novice and feeling my way around. I simply have happened on to a style that is pretty much my own and at first it was a bit flattering when some of the best hatters in the country started adopting my "look" but then crap, every T D & Harry not only started copying it but declaring it theirs. What makes it even worse is that it's often done poorly!! I can't make every one stop it, it's a free country, but I CAN guard what I do to make it happen. I don't believe for a heartbeat that I'm the only guy in the trade that CAN do what I do, but for the last few years I'm the guy that put the time in to develop the methods so yes, I'm protective of it.
As for my definition of publicly? internet. I repeat, more than once I've had misused knowledge come back to bite me.:eusa_doh:

 

[Art Fawcett]

Maybe I come from a POV that over-values education and under-values training, but somehow I can't scrape up that last measure of respect for the guy who works like hell only to take it to the grave. He's putting something before the craft - perhaps the trade - perhaps some trade ethic I don't buy into.

OK, I think I'm beginning to understand your point Fletch. First, please try to accept that education and training are one & the same. One is hypothetical or often abstract, the other is hands on and experienced. Both are to be proud of. Let me give you this. The brother of my first wife was/is absolutely brilliant. He understands Dr. Stephen Hawkings perfectly ( hope I spelled his name right) and can discuss Einstein theory's fluently but needs to wear loafers because tying that knot distresses him. Cannot change a flat tire to save his life.
My point is there is a place of honor for both.

I see you point of putting oneself "above" the trade therefore taking it to the grave. That's why training others is important, however, what you have no way of seeing is just how often the newbie will decide that TODAY he wants to be a hatter and therefore expects you to teach him, on my earning time, to do what I do ( or any other tradesman..I'm using the royal I). It's great for a few weeks until something else catches their attention and then poof...they're gone and you have wasted your time and often tools. ( yes, I have given tools away)
After a while you just naturally cringe when the next request comes, never knowing if its a fad for them or real. What it generally is , is a waste of time.

Before I go further, I have to tell you that when I clicked your link to the Lark story, all I got was a follow up thread with about 4 responses, none of which told the story. I'm afraid I'm still on "cpu's for dummy's" so maybe I did something wrong. It might help me to get the full story and I only vaguely remember when Lark was going through this. He was in contact with me at the time but I can't remember details.

 

[Tango Yankee]

navarre, when you say someone has to "love the trade for what it is," what does that mean? Do you distinguish the trade from the craft - ie, just building/styling/finishing?

Is this why you wouldn't teach anyone who was starting from zero? Someone with your level of curiosity and enthusiasm is not enough for you - he's got to have gone thru what you've gone thru, or be willing to give you that personal assurance?

It may also be about making sure you are willing to commit yourself to the craft, and not waste their time or even their hopes of being able to pass on the knowledge--making sure it's not just a wild idea that won't last long.

A few years ago I approached Gus Miller in Cincinatti and broached the idea of an apprenticeship. He was rather dubious, but said that if I wanted to I could come and use his equipment; if I recall correctly he thought I should give learning a bit on my own a shot first; he also mused about the difficulty in getting the tools and equipment.

I never took it to mean he didn't want to teach anyone or to share secrets. I took it to mean that I should be sure that it was something I wanted to do before he put too much of himself into the idea. I certainly don't blame him for that. I live two hours drive away. I had good intentions, but the reality is that there were changes in my life that led me away from that path (at least for now.) I honestly think that if I had shown up a month or two later with a couple of examples of renovated hats I'd done, or even a first try on making a complete hat, he would have warmed to the idea, but I don't blame him for being dubious. After all, it turned out he was right to be.

Should I have managed to talk him into an apprenticeship I would have expected to be taught the basics, and hoped that as I earned his respect he might share some of those "secrets". And that is how I see this whole thing: one might ask to be taught the basics, to be given a starting point--but I think that you should demonstrate that you've earned the right to be shown a bit more, if that makes sense to anyone.

Maybe after I finish my Masters I'll revisit the idea, refurb a few hats and go back, if he hasn't retired and closed the shop by then.

Regards,
Tom

 

[Blackthorn]

This I understand Fletch but the flip side of that is that nobody knows exactly when they are going to die and it's ALWAYS sooner than we are ready so I can understand it happening. I agree, we should pass on as much as we can before that point and I have in the masonry field. In THAT field I can honestly consider myself a master or journeyman and as such trained many apprentices. Some are still in the trade, some not. None however came out solely to take my living away.
In the hatting field I am still a novice and feeling my way around. I simply have happened on to a style that is pretty much my own and at first it was a bit flattering when some of the best hatters in the country started adopting my "look" but then crap, every T D & Harry not only started copying it but declaring it theirs. What makes it even worse is that it's often done poorly!! I can't make every one stop it, it's a free country, but I CAN guard what I do to make it happen. I don't believe for a heartbeat that I'm the only guy in the trade that CAN do what I do, but for the last few years I'm the guy that put the time in to develop the methods so yes, I'm protective of it.
As for my definition of publicly? internet. I repeat, more than once I've had misused knowledge come back to bite me.:eusa_doh:

I don't think we have to worry about the trade dying out because of lack of knowledge or skill. The select few with the gift of your level of hat making, Art, will also figure out ways to get it done, be it tomorrow or a hundred years from now. That said, all the tricks/techniques you have learned the hard way should be yours to keep, with no obligation to anyone else. The next generation of hat makers can learn the same way you did, and personalize their own style.

In the mean time, Art, keep up the good work! :eusa_clap

 

[John in Covina]

It is not a Hatter or just dying art thing. People that are in business usually want to make money and as such find it difficult to enable what may be their competition. Some people are more protective than others and are less likely to reveal the tips of the trade. Competition can bring out the best in people such as best efforts, and the worst in people where some feel under attack and will use subterfuge to undermine their competition.

There is a history of corporate espionage, stealing trade secrets and counterfeiting so there is a reason for people to feel protective. Another thing is that one may have a person come into a trade, a company invests time in training but when the person learns what they need to know they leave and start up their own company.

When a customer base is considered limited it often makes for a protectionist attitude.

A parent that owns a company usually would like to see that passed on to their children but today most kids are taught to follow their heart and are not interested in working in their parents company. Here is where sometimes the opportunity comes up and they find an outsider with an interest may be allowed in as the person to keep things going. It is kind of rare and great to see it when it happens.

 

[Fletch]

We absolutely do have to operate in real-world, marketplace conditions. One hopes that if we do it creatively and conscientiously, there will be room to do more than just survive - but to grow. How well does the entrepreneur in you get along with the craftsman?

Still, TangoYankee put it very concisely when he mentioned the hope of being able to pass on the knowledge. Of course we can't know what someone will do in the future, only what they've already done. If we come at it from the angle of bona fides - do they show what we think it takes to learn and practice and carry on, and we are frank and clear about that - we have the best of motives.

 

[bendingoak]

It would be nice to be open about the craft but what I learned early on the it really is just like any biz. You have to protect what you got because other will do everything they can to keep you down. Why do they do it. Mostly because they feel threaten by the new guy. Heck when I started a three years ago there where people trying everything possible to keep me down. Heck they still do it. Some have told lies about me trying to keep me from buying vintage ribbon or or sources like panamas. You guys would be shocked by the guys doing thing like this. in a biz like this, do you really expect some one man shop to trust anyone?

 

[fmw]

Those tactics aren't effective in business. What is effective is providing a product and services that meet and beat your customers' expectations. Your competitors have nothing to do with that. The crafsmen who do that well will succeed no matter what others try to do to them. My only experience with a custom hatter has been Mike Moore of Buckaroo. The hat he made for me was delivered as promised and it exceeded my expectations. That is why his business thrives.

 

[bendingoak]

I agree with you. No matter how hard people try to keep me down and lie about me. I am doing just fine. I have nearly a 6 month wait time for my handmade/custom hats and I work nearly seven days a week.

 

[Fletch]

The question comes up again: how well do the entrepreneur in you and the craftsman in you get along?

At least in the musical instrument field (which I know best), a lot of good craftspeople are anywhere from casual to downright reckless about business. Some people's ignorance is so bizarre it borders on the pathological, like the mouthpiece makers who trashed each other online for close to a decade, each assuming their product was so good they had no need for goodwill, or the sax technician who repeatedly "lost" instruments or parts of instruments sent for repair and began evading all contact with the owners.

Now how do you get from the point where you are tireless in doing the best work you can, to the point where you don't give a wet squirt about the people you're doing it for or even your own reputation? What takes a $#!! in your head (pardon the metaphor) to allow that to come about?

Admittedly, entrepreneurship turns some people off. They think of slicksters. Greedheads. Weenie MBAs who never made a thing in their lives. Quick buck artists who write silly books full of slogans and platitudes. Well, guess what. They aren't the real deal. They didn't invent entrepreneurship, they don't own it, and you don't become one of them when you decide to sell your stuff intelligently.

Mind you, I'm no marketing expert. In fact I am as disdainful as anybody of marketing schemes, because almost all of them are geared to mass marketing. Still - there has to be some sweet spot where people who do good work on a small scale, or for a specialty, can market that work and profit from it.

Another suspect in that head$#!!ing might be ego - isolation - that attitude of "it's all about me" that I suspect might afflict even some very good craftspeople. If it is all about you, well whoop-de-do, but that means it's not about your work, or your customer, or good old TCB. Do you really think you can afford to lose sight of all those things? They allow you to do what you do in the first place.

Even being conscientious about your work (but nothing else) may not keep you going. Your work may speak for itself, but do you want to risk undoing that? The backstabbing crowd don't calculate the risk, or are too dumb to think of any better way to get by.

I believe fmw is right that it has to begin with quality, value, and customer responsiveness - appropriate to the work and services you do and the price you ask. That brings invaluable, positive word-of-mouth - or word-of-keyboard. That last is something those instrument craftsmen 10 years ago didn't appreciate (some are still screwing it up), and something wise heads will want to spend some time coming to grips with - say, by joining a few bulletin boards and participating.

 

[tonyb]

The question comes up again: how well do the entrepreneur in you and the craftsman in you get along?

They get along okay, although I've never really been much of an entrepreneur, which is among the reasons I pursued a career as a rich woman's plaything. It's working out fine.

At a social gathering several months back a know-it-all type (there's one in every crowd, that guy who likes to suck all the oxygen out of the room) commented on my hat. I told him I made it myself. That was a mistake. He pushed me to elaborate so I pointed out that the body itself is made of 100 percent beaver fur and that the sweatband is vegetable-tanned sheepskin and that the ribbon is vintage stuff, older than either of us, and we aren't kids, etc. He then proceeded to tell me how I ought to be doing things, that I ought to forget about all that vintage ribbon jazz and all-beaver stuff and get into mass production and figure out how to cut my production costs and increase my volume. I doubt he even heard me say that the types of hats I make, and wish to continue making, can't be produced that way.

Nothing against those larger custom hat shops. I tip my hat to a person who can turn a custom hattery into a million-dollar business. But that ain't me.