Just when you think you'd heard the worst of it ...

[LizzieMaine]

McCormick was a real piece of work. He published the most defeatist paper in the country, he opposed the Nuremburg trials, and every issue of his paper had a big fat American flag on the masthead.

 

[Panadora]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

 

[AmateisGal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

I don't think anyone here posting would deny that the US has been involved in a lot of unethical stuff (and continues to be). After all, the eugenics movement got its start here before it ever showed up in Nazi Germany.

But I don't see how that link is germane to the discussion.

 

[pawineguy]

A minor, but significant point here -- mainstream Hollywood didn't make "The Great Dictator," Charlie Chaplin -- an independent producer with strong left-wing political views -- did so. The major studios, after "Confessions of a Nazi Spy" was attacked as "war propaganda" in the right-wing Hearst press, wanted nothing to do with such "controversial subject matter." Chaplin, for his part, was roundly attacked by the Hearst papers for making "Dictator," and isolationist groups urged a boycott of the film.

It's easy to underestimate just how deeply and closely many Americans in 1940-41 were flirting with fascism. Some were openly sympathetic to Nazism, some were doing so in the belief that the US should ally with Germany against Russia, some were doing so out of bitter anti-British views, some were relics of the midwestern anti-semitic, nativist-populist movement of the 1920s, and some were just so desperately opposed to going to war again that they were willing to ignore everything Hitler did for the sake of being "left alone." But whatever their rationale, their voices were loud and powerful for a very long time -- in some cases continuing right into the middle of US involvement in the war itself. Colonel Robert McCormick's Chicago Tribune -- the most influential paper in the Midwest -- consistently published anti-war-effort, Nazi-leaning editorials all thru the war years.

Which were balanced by the Stalin apologists working for the NY Times, The Guardian and others, most famously Walter Duranty. I think if that era (and the decades since) taught us anything, it's that tyrants can emerge from any point on the political spectrum. The Ukrainian genocide matched the Holocaust for loss of life years before WWII, and yet the major Hollywood studios produced multiple pro-Soviet films, even at the urging and in cooperation with our government.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

"In 1950, in order to conduct a simulation of a biological warfare attack, the U.S. Navy used airplanes to spray large quantities of the bacteria Serratia marcescens – considered harmless at this time – over the city of San Francisco. Numerous citizens contracted pneumonia-like illnesses, and at least one person died as a result. The family of the man who died sued the government for gross negligence, but a federal judge ruled in favor of the government in 1981. Serratia tests were continued until at least 1969."

Can you say Chemtrails?

 

[ChiTownScion]

McCormick was a real piece of work. He published the most defeatist paper in the country, he opposed the Nuremburg trials, and every issue of his paper had a big fat American flag on the masthead.

During the war years there were five dailies published in Chicago. McCormick's Tribune was definitely the big player, as it also owned WGN radio.

After my dad came back from World War II, he took my mom one evening to watch a live musical radio broadcast from Tribune Tower. After the show, McCormick came out, wearing bathrobe, pajamas, and slippers, and basically held a monologue with the audience. My dad recalled it as one of the most bizarre and surreal things he had ever seen.

He got his colonel commission through the Illinois National Guard. In other words, money and politics had more to do with it than any demonstrated military leadership skills. His unit was part of the First Division in World War I, and he named his huge estate in Wheaton "Cantigny" after one of their encounters in France. Whatever his faults, it's now the home of a decent military museum-- and the rest of the grounds are quite pleasant.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Which were balanced by the Stalin apologists working for the NY Times, The Guardian and others, most famously Walter Duranty. I think if that era (and the decades since) taught us anything, it's that tyrants can emerge from any point on the political spectrum. The Ukrainian genocide matched the Holocaust for loss of life years before WWII, and yet the major Hollywood studios produced multiple pro-Soviet films, even at the urging and in cooperation with our government.

Of course, the reality of what happened in the Ukraine was not widely known and understood until the 1970s and 80s due to a tight clamp kept on information by the Soviet Government. In the Era, it was understood that whatever the Soviet Union's faults were, alliance with the USSR was absolutely necessary to the defeat of Fascism. Those who argued otherwise generally fell into the "Let's team up with Hitler to destroy the filthy Bolsheviks for the sake of the white race" camp.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

He (McCormick) got his colonel commission through the Illinois National Guard. In other words, money and politics had more to do with it than any demonstrated military leadership skills. His unit was part of the First Division in World War I, and he named his huge estate in Wheaton "Cantigny" after one of their encounters in France. Whatever his faults, it's now the home of a decent military museum-- and the rest of the grounds are quite pleasant.

Quite a common occurence in the prewar National Guard. So much so that when the National Guard divisions were activated for Federal service many of the officers were replaced with Regular officers. Besides, many of them were too old.

 

[Panadora]

... But I don't see how that link is germane to the discussion.

Sorry, I was thinking of the initial post with the Japanese and the POWs

 

[pawineguy]

Of course, the reality of what happened in the Ukraine was not widely known and understood until the 1970s and 80s due to a tight clamp kept on information by the Soviet Government. In the Era, it was understood that whatever the Soviet Union's faults were, alliance with the USSR was absolutely necessary to the defeat of Fascism. Those who argued otherwise generally fell into the "Let's team up with Hitler to destroy the filthy Bolsheviks for the sake of the white race" camp.

Well yes, they weren't widely known because prominent journalists spoon fed the American people whatever lies Stalin wanted perpetuated, as did our Ambassador and most of the Roosevelt administration. There is a big leap between reluctant allies and the propping up of Stalin that occurred here. It seems only Churchill saw the evil that had arrived.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The Hearst press did publish some material about the Ukranian famine in 1934, but did the cause of truth more harm than good by using material from a man who had never actually visited the places he had claimed to visit, and who submitted falsely-attributed photos taken a decade earlier in support of his story. Hearst was so monomaniacal about wanting to discredit the USSR by any means necessary that if he didn't have the evidence to support his goal, he'd gladly manufacture it. This was standard procedure for all the Hearst papers, thruout Hearst's lifetime, and well after.

There were other, more ethical journalists who had actual scruples about covering the USSR in the Era, but they tended to publish in obscure journals, not the popular press -- which was overwhelmingly right-wing in its political alignment thru the 1930s. Most of what was published about the Soviet Union in the mainstream newspapers and magazines up until the US entered the war tended to be extremely negative, especially during the period of the Berlin-Moscow Non-Agression Pact. Even Duranty's articles in the early thirties contradicted the actual editorial policy of the Times, which at that time stood right of center, and was opposed to diplomatic recognition of the USSR.

Meanwhile, even dear old pragmatic Mr. Churchill was not entirely negative about Premier Stalin --

It is very fortunate for Russia in her agony to have this great rugged war chief at her head. He is a man of massive outstanding personality, suited to the sombre and stormy times in which his life has been cast; a man of inexhaustible courage and will-power and a man direct and even blunt in speech, which, having been brought up in the House of Commons, I do not mind at all, especially when I have something to say of my own. Above all, he is a man with that saving sense of humour which is of high importance to all men and all nations, but particularly to great men and great nations. Stalin also left upon me the impression of a deep, cool wisdom and a complete absence of illusions of any kind. I believe I made him feel that we were good and faithful comrades in this war – but that, after all, is a matter which deeds not words will prove.

I'm not bringing all this up to wave the flag for Stalin -- I might be a pinko, but I'm not stupid. I'm merely noting that if we really want to understand history, we have to try to see it thru contemporaneous eyes, not thru the eyes of modern ideological interpretation. Given twenty years of generally-hostile treatment in the mainstream Western press, and a long history of hard-line red-baiting of anyone who expressed even the mildest public interest in the USSR, a sales job was an absolute necessity if Americans were to accept Russia as a wartime ally.

 

[Big J]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation_in_the_United_States

Yeah, sure, the US has done some terrible things. I'm not denying that, and that's the difference. In Japan denial is chronic, and extends all the way to the top. I've had death threats for research I've done, and other universities who's researchers produce research the deniers don't like have received bomb threats.
That that Wikipedia article exists is a big difference. Even if I wanted to write something similar about, say, Unit 731, I'd first have to weigh up what would happen when the right-wing find out who I am, and then get my postal address from a sympathetic government worker, who would also tell them where I work (and I'm speaking as if I was hypothetically Japanese there).
Yes, like the Indian wars, or Vietnam, there are episodes and aspects of US history that deserve inspection, but let's not kid ourselves, seen against Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, N. Korea, Pol Pots Cambodia, Yemen, Somalia, IS, that whilst the US isn't perfect, it's still the best of a pretty bad bunch.
Every country has aspects of its history that it isn't proud of, but quite frankly, the US is, and always has been, head and shoulders above the rest.

 

[AmateisGal]

Yeah, sure, the US has done some terrible things. I'm not denying that, and that's the difference. In Japan denial is chronic, and extends all the way to the top. I've had death threats for research I've done, and other universities who's researchers produce research the deniers don't like have received bomb threats.
That that Wikipedia article exists is a big difference. Even if I wanted to write something similar about, say, Unit 731, I'd first have to weigh up what would happen when the right-wing find out who I am, and then get my postal address from a sympathetic government worker, who would also tell them where I work (and I'm speaking as if I was hypothetically Japanese there).
Yes, like the Indian wars, or Vietnam, there are episodes and aspects of US history that deserve inspection, but let's not kid ourselves, seen against Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, N. Korea, Pol Pots Cambodia, Yemen, Somalia, IS, that whilst the US isn't perfect, it's still the best of a pretty bad bunch.
Every country has aspects of its history that it isn't proud of, but quite frankly, the US is, and always has been, head and shoulders above the rest.

And again, I completely agree with you.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I'll second that

 

[LizzieMaine]

I dunno. Canadians live longer, have a lower divorce rate and infant mortality rate, are better educated, and tend to have a more equitable distribution of wealth than we do. We're OK, as nations go, but that doesn't mean we can't learn something from the rest of the world.

 

[AmateisGal]

I dunno. Canadians live longer, have a lower divorce rate and infant mortality rate, are better educated, and tend to have a more equitable distribution of wealth than we do. We're OK, as nations go, but that doesn't mean we can't learn something from the rest of the world.

I think we can learn things from the rest of the world, and we've got our fair share of issues. Canada has too much of a socialist state for my liking. I like being able to go to a specialist for my health issues within a week or two instead of months like many do in Canada. Yes, our healthcare system is completely broken, but that's a debate for another time and another place.

 

[jamespowers]

"In 1950, in order to conduct a simulation of a biological warfare attack, the U.S. Navy used airplanes to spray large quantities of the bacteria Serratia marcescens – considered harmless at this time – over the city of San Francisco. Numerous citizens contracted pneumonia-like illnesses, and at least one person died as a result. The family of the man who died sued the government for gross negligence, but a federal judge ruled in favor of the government in 1981. Serratia tests were continued until at least 1969."

Can you say Chemtrails?

That explains a whole heck of a lot here. Harmless---right. Walk around in San Franfreako and see how harmless it was. :doh:

 

[jamespowers]

Which were balanced by the Stalin apologists working for the NY Times, The Guardian and others, most famously Walter Duranty. I think if that era (and the decades since) taught us anything, it's that tyrants can emerge from any point on the political spectrum. The Ukrainian genocide matched the Holocaust for loss of life years before WWII, and yet the major Hollywood studios produced multiple pro-Soviet films, even at the urging and in cooperation with our government.

Exactly! Stalin, we know now due to the fall of the communist empire there and their records, was involved DIRECTLY with communists here trying to agitate our involvement to save them from the Germans or at least postpone it. Just as Germany had the Bund, Stalin had his "useful idiots" that he exploited to get the US on his side. Stalin also was responsible for killing millions of his own people without regard to nationality or religion. :doh:
As Patton said when asked what he would do if he was caught between the Germans and the Russians: "I would fire in both directions."

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think we can learn things from the rest of the world, and we've got our fair share of issues. Canada has too much of a socialist state for my liking. I like being able to go to a specialist for my health issues within a week or two instead of months like many do in Canada. Yes, our healthcare system is completely broken, but that's a debate for another time and another place.

I think I'd really like Canada, myself. My family comes from Nova Scotia, I've always enjoyed visiting Canada, I love poutine, I used to root for the Expos, and I actually had major surgery in a Canadian hospital ten years ago for half what it would have cost me in the states.

But I just don't think I could stand living up there in the cold.

 

[jamespowers]

Those who argued otherwise generally fell into the "Let's team up with Hitler to destroy the filthy Bolsheviks for the sake of the white race" camp.

Uh, not quite as Japan was also in that fray as the Nomanhan incident and numerous previous incidents pitted Japan against Russia. They always hated each other and were alligned with Germany against Russia. Stalin worked against Japan AND Germany to get us on their side. Reords indicate that Stalin even knew about the Pearl Harbor attack but never told us a single thing because he wanted us to be against them. A Russian ship (I would have to look up the name), in fact, intersected the attack force at sea---coming from San Francisco-- and they were not detained or captured. They were allowed to go on their way and nothing happened as documented in Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton recounted in his book And I Was There Pearl Harbor and Midway---Breaking the Secrets.
Stalin was a conniving killer and beast who would let nothing stop him or get in his way.:doh: