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John Wayne's Akubra?

Sam Craig

One Too Many
Messages
1,356
Location
Great Bend, Kansas
Mike,
All I can tell you is that the Duke, late in life, acknowledged that his cav hat was over creased.
His sons, Pat and Michael both, have commented that the old hat was pretty well shot when their dad stopped wearing it.
To be fair, the hat had been used a lot and John Wayne himself noted that his buddies in the Rat Pack didn't help matters when they kept pullin it down over Sammy Davis Jr.'s head when he wore the hat in Sgts Three ... Seeing the abuse the hat suffered in that loan out, the Duke allegedly commented "I should have had it bronzed."

I'm sure we have all experienced the damage we do to a good felt hat when we crease it too much.
On the other hand, when you look at close ups of the John Ford cav hats, it's clear you could not get that look without very sharp creases and that is going to stress the felt.
But they were trying to achieve a certain look, not longevity.

You see the same thing with the Raiders fedoras.
If you want a long-lasting fure felt fedora then you DON'T want to do what it takes to make it look just like the Streets of Cairo hat.
The two are mutually exclusive.

Having noted all that ... Jack knows what he is doing. Wichita Hat Works isn't going to do anything that will hurt your hat. There certainly ARE ways to give a hat character without destroying it. But it's good that you are working with experts!

Sam
 
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1961MJS

My Mail is Forwarded Here
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3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
Thanks Sam. I'll be swapping out the Duke hat with the Campaign hat for outdoor work. I have 3 felt fedoras to swap through too, so that's not a problem. If I handle with the brim, that should lessen the effects too.

Later
 

Sam Craig

One Too Many
Messages
1,356
Location
Great Bend, Kansas
Mike

I think normal creasing and normal wear are fine.
My point is ... to achieve the look that John Ford wanted in these cav movies -- he WAS recreating the Frederick Remington image, after all -- the costume folks created these overly creased crown hats.
You can still do that to a hat, just as you can do the funky Streets of Cairo effect. You just can't do that and expect to have a long-lived hat with no break to the felt.

Sam
 
Messages
10,524
Location
DnD Ranch, Cherokee County, GA
Hard use will do that to a hat & that is what Ford was going for = battle-worn calvary soldiers.
I trashed my grandfather's Open Road about 30 years ago (1981-1983) as my re-enacting hat for the War of Northern Agression.
Use as a pillow, fanning a fire, etc. really took it's toll & it looks like something Johnny Depp would wear.
I'm sure the costumers were recreating a look.

I have gone thru a couple more Stetsons since that one but none I regret trashing like that one.
It is in a box with my father's old rain hat.

To me, the brim gets shaped from taking in on & off as well as being held by the brim.
Riding a horse at speed will also curl up a brim too. Flipping the brim up to look down a barrel of a rifle or use binoculars = no brim styling, just a well used hat....
 

Sam Craig

One Too Many
Messages
1,356
Location
Great Bend, Kansas
Yeah, one of my guilty confessions ... I really feel bad about this guys ... is the number of vintage ORs and OR clones I destroyed over about 20 years of post-Civil War Indian War living history projects.
I converted one into a campaign hat and other guys saw how cool they turned out, and back then ... in the 80s especially ... you could buy them around here at ever thrift store every day

I'd knock out the crease, pull the ribbon binding, flatten the brims, and usually discard the ribbon band. Then there was the artificial aging ... you get the picture. It's horrible to remember.

Mea Culpa

But, hey, the guys loved them to death ... and I mean that literally!

Sam
 

4spurs

One of the Regulars
Messages
271
Location
mostly in my head
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Ok boys, I was able to watch about 15 min of Hondo this morning, 1953. Duke was wearing his signature hat, but it was not flipped up in the front. It was flipped down. Ward Bond was playing a scruffy character [as usual] and his hat was flipped fore n`aft.

Maybe Duke's hat flipped up at some other point in the film, but not while I was watching it. And just to break your hearts. I rec'd a vintage 7X CB 3.5" brim today

ebay item # 120805902315 The ebay photos make it look "silverbelly" gray, but's not, it's a tan, chamois color, and it's sitting on my head right now, drying out, with a new diamond crease, brim down . . . .

and yes, the felt is thin, and the ribbon is real thin, heck I've got shoelaces that are wider.
http://http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa325/4spurs/ebayandjohnwayne7XCB013.jpghttp:// http:// http://

The felt is the same thickness as a 1984 quarter. Inside it's marked as a 7X Clear Beaver, it also has the original price tag under the sweatband that lists the selling price as $47.50. The sweatband is stamped with the retailer's name; the El Paso Store, Nogales, AZ.

The outdoor photos show the hat's true color, a light tan; whereas inside photos make it look "silvebelly.'

Anyone have any guess as to the age of this hat?
 

1961MJS

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
Hi

Sam, I tried on the Silverbelly today at Jack's. The hat wasn't creased in the Diamond, but Brian took care of that in about 5 minutes. I picked a ribbon for the hat with a regular square bow, and the brim will be bound in the same color. It won't be done until January 13th 2012 though. The hat fits well, and the brim is kind of flat, but not Boss of the Plains flat. So far so good, but waiting is just a bad thing.

Merry Xmas and all
 

Sam Craig

One Too Many
Messages
1,356
Location
Great Bend, Kansas
Mike

One thing you know, when they get done you'll be happy with what they do.

There may be more expensive hatters out there, but I don't believe there are any better.

Sam
 

1961MJS

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Messages
3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
Hi

I just got my Resistol back from Brian yesterday. The brim and ribbon look great, but the whole John Ford Cavalry hat didn't work because the crown isn't high enough. I'll post pictures when I get a chance, (I have a 4H match starting at 6 AM tomorrow morning). I have pictures of the original hat and the way it is now. I THINK I'll try and redo the diamond shape myself. If that doesn't work, I THINK I'll have it changed into a Boss of the Plains. I left the brim at 4 inches which may have also been a mistake on my part.

Later
 

Sam Craig

One Too Many
Messages
1,356
Location
Great Bend, Kansas
Mike,

I have the utmost respect for Brian and he does terrific work, but I ran into a similar problem when they rebuilt my ancient Dobbs dress hat.
It had to be rebuilt, back-to-front, and when Brian shipped it out ... I couldn't wait to drive back for it ... he put a really low crown crease in it, I think because he was concerned about the original crease lines showing.
I spritzed it good and left it open crown for a bit and then went back in and put it back into its high-crown glory and it looks great.

When I did the cav crease on my old Resistol, I had to get a little agressive with it, because it is a radical crease, especially if you are really trying to copy shots from the movies.

Good luck and make sure the kids shoot straight!

Sam
 

1961MJS

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3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
Hi

Here's the Resistol before I took it to Jack's.

Resistol_Start_02_sm.jpg


This is a picture from the top:

Resistol_Start_01_sm.jpg


Here are three pictures of the hat after Brian got done with it:

Resistol_Done_01_sm.jpg


Resistol_Done_02_sm.jpg


Resistol_Done_03_sm.jpg


You can see that I tried to do a John Wayne / Ford Cavalry Crease without enough crown to work with. The brim looks good and the hat should look o.k. as a Boss of the Plains. The hat really looks different in natural light and in the basement with a cell phone camera doesn't it? I already took the crease out and it's drying in an open crown shape waiting for a second try. If I can't get it to work, Brian gets it back to try a decent flat top.

Later Y'all
 
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Sam Craig

One Too Many
Messages
1,356
Location
Great Bend, Kansas
That is one sharp looking hat.
I like the ribbon binding a lot.

Are you going to put a bonnet string on it?

It looks great in both lights, but I must say the natural look in the second set is really attractive.

I think it would look neat with that early Stetson flat top crown and a flat brim.

I think the hats they were using for the Duke/Ford fliks were really thin felt and started with pretty tall crowns.
My old Resistol that I wet-shaped took the look good for around the house ... I actually have it on a life-size John Wayne bust ... but if you wore it out much, it wouldn't pass for the real thing. Not with anyone who knew their movie hats.

Boss sounds like a great idea!

Later,
Sam
 

1961MJS

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Messages
3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
Thanks Sam

I have a double loop stampede string, but it won't lay down right. I figured I'd work on that after I get the crown done correctly.

Later
 

4spurs

One of the Regulars
Messages
271
Location
mostly in my head
1961MJS, Duke's hat, the one under discussion here, was a 7XCB, it was the model sold as the "Tophand" which had a 5.5" crown and a 3.5" brim, and had a raw edge. Also, his crease was a diamond with the front end of the diamond slightly longer, and a small crease, or mule kick in the front, with dimples on all four sides of the diamond. As to his brim curling up fore n'aft, if you watch Rio Bravo you can see that brim up in some scenes and down, or at least flat, in others.

I think that if you cut the brim down you'll not only be at the right size but you'll also be ditching that edge binding and you'll have the raw edge that his hat had. Do that and recrease the hat, and you'll be there with the hat you have; which as everyone agrees has a great looking ribbon on it.
 

1961MJS

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
I added the brim binding to keep it creased better, so I don't really want to cut the brim down. I was going to have it cut back, but I have a Campaign hat (Jaxonbilt) with a 4 inch brim and like it o.k. I'll just have to live with that. I was already worried about the crown height being too short, I'll measure it when I get home. I think that the best outcome here is to take it back to Brian and get is made into a Boss of the Plains. I will probably try re-creasing it to a Duke hat, but I'm not holding my breath that it will work. I think I need a 6 inch crown to a really good high diamond like the Duke wore.

Later
 

1961MJS

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3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
Yep, he wore a 6" crown with a 4" brim Resistol in movies starting in the 60's. Check out "the Comancheros," 1961.

Hi 4Spurs. I looked on YouTube, the hats are just a little different. The Cavalry trilogy ones look a lot thinner than my Resistol. They also have a higher crown. I really gotta measure that thing. I'm betting it's less than 5.25 inches. The Commanchero's hat looked even taller.

Later
 

1961MJS

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,370
Location
Norman Oklahoma
Hi

I got home from Pistol Practice early last night and re-creased it in the diamond shape. It looks better with less curve than what Brian had. I think I'll re-wet it tonight and try an even harsher crease and see how that looks. I'll still PROBABLY end up with a Boss of the Plains though.

No pictures, I think I somehow managed to leave my camera on in the backpack and ran the batteries down.

Later
 

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