Jodhpurs / Breeches

[draws]

Just picked up a great pair of vintage men's khaki jodhpurs from another TFL lounger. They are in great condition, size 36 waist. Thanks Indyfan.

 

[carouselvic]

My Uncle 1941 mounted cavalry Fort Riley Kansas

 

[just_me]

1948 Olympics:

 

[draws]

CLASSIC!!!! early 40s mounted Cav uniform. Thanks for posting your uncle's photo. What stands out is differences from the late 30s mounted cavalry uniform of light breeches, sam brown belt and brown campaign hat. Very Nice!

 

[Lone_Ranger]

1948 Olympics:

I always thought that 1936, was the last time military officers competed in Olympic equestrian events, and the "jump #4 incident."

The 1936 Olympics produced controversial results, with the Germans winning all 6 gold medals, the only time in Olympic history where one team has made a clean sweep. There were protests from all 18 teams at the Games. One incident occurred on the cross-country course in the eventing competition, where the 4th fence, a 3 ft post-and-rail dropping into a pond, produced a great number of falls. The landing was much deeper than anticipated and the footing underneath did not hold up well. However, all of the German team members made it through without a problem, suggesting that the host team might have known the true condition of the obstacle.

 

[just_me]

I always thought that 1936, was the last time military officers competed in Olympic equestrian events, and the "jump #4 incident."

The 1936 Olympics produced controversial results, with the Germans winning all 6 gold medals, the only time in Olympic history where one team has made a clean sweep. There were protests from all 18 teams at the Games. One incident occurred on the cross-country course in the eventing competition, where the 4th fence, a 3 ft post-and-rail dropping into a pond, produced a great number of falls. The landing was much deeper than anticipated and the footing underneath did not hold up well. However, all of the German team members made it through without a problem, suggesting that the host team might have known the true condition of the obstacle.

I recently watched a video made of the films from the 1936 Olympic cross-country. It was very upsetting. Very few horses made it through. I think that France didn't have a single team member that completed.

You are right. It was believed that the Germans knew that the one side of the jump that most riders would choose (riders have some leeway in choosing how and what they jump in x-country) was unstable and all the Germans jumped the more stable side.

The host team is not allowed to practice on the course, but it was felt that they actually did.

 

[Baggers]

Getting back to Warbaby's original question, how about these from What Price Glory? The price is definitely easier on the pocket than the others and they're ready made.

I'm thinking of getting a pair. I call dibs on size 12.

Cheers!

 

[ArrowCollarMan]

How come they were poofy?

 

[draws]

Getting back to Warbaby's original question, how about these from What Price Glory? The price is definitely easier on the pocket than the others and they're ready made.

I'm thinking of getting a pair. I call dibs on size 12.

Cheers!

Baggers, we in the Lancers have purchased breeches from WPG and their breeches are quite good and the price is reasonable. They are patterned after the khaki breeches of the 30s and 40s and WPG maintains a good stock of the larger sizes.

 

[draws]

How come they were poofy?

ArrowCollarMan,

The design of breeches is hundreds of years old during a time when the world was not mechanized and horse power was the norm. During the mid to late 1800s, the designs changed. The military had worn them full length (to the ankle) in Europe and non-military wore them to the knees with a belt or button fastener. A more general design change was to shorten the military variant to the ankle making the use of tall riding boots more comfortable and lengthening the non-military variant to be longer and more standard with the military version for the same reason. This change resulted in some discomfort for the rider in that it forced material in the seat and upper thigh area to stretch. Materials in those days were not very flexible which caused additional discomfort.

Additional changes were made to the seat and thigh areas to provide more room and comfort in the saddle as a result. MOre material was added to the thighs resulting in the peg or flare that you see in the early 20th century.

As new materials were developed, the need for the flare at the thighs was discontinued in favor of these new fabrics resulting in the tight fitting breeches that you see today.

I'm certain that there were other reasons for these changes but I have tried to describe the more obvious ones. I hope that this helps.

 

[Baggers]

Baggers, we in the Lancers have purchased breeches from WPG and their breeches are quite good and the price is reasonable. They are patterned after the khaki breeches of the 30s and 40s and WPG maintains a good stock of the larger sizes.

Draws, I was wondering what your opinion of Jerry's breeches would be. I have the summer khaki cotton model that I purchased along with a pair of his first run of Patton Boots (pictured elsewhere on the forum, probably in the Adventurer's Gear Thread). I haven't worn them in a while, but I'm thinking of pulling them back out of the closet if I can find a reason. I haven't ridden in over twenty years but I simply prefer the look and feel of traditional riding apparel over the modern styles -- I can't stand polyester or spandex, I don't care how much it stretches. If I ever mounted up again I'd love to give them a try, but the expected reactions from the onlookers might give me pause. Especially since where I live hunt or saddle seat is almost non existent.

BTW, handsome critter you've got there. I had a chestnut Quarter Arab gelding back in the mid 80s. Not very tall, only about 15 hands, but he had a lot of heart.

Cheers!

 

[draws]

Draws, I was wondering what your opinion of Jerry's breeches would be. I have the summer khaki cotton model that I purchased along with a pair of his first run of Patton Boots (pictured elsewhere on the forum, probably in the Adventurer's Gear Thread). I haven't worn them in a while, but I'm thinking of pulling them back out of the closet if I can find a reason. I haven't ridden in over twenty years but I simply prefer the look and feel of traditional riding apparel over the modern styles -- I can't stand polyester or spandex, I don't care how much it stretches. If I ever mounted up again I'd love to give them a try, but the expected reactions from the onlookers might give me pause. Especially since where I live hunt or saddle seat is almost non existent.

BTW, handsome critter you've got there. I had a chestnut Quarter Arab gelding back in the mid 80s. Not very tall, only about 15 hands, but he had a lot of heart.

Cheers!

Baggers, thank you for the kind words on Amigo. Arabians can be a bit fiesty but he is not. He is especially impressive when in a canter and his blond tail rises and he also has a wonderful gait. We have eighteen horse in our herd and they are all very specially cared for.

here is a photo of my pair of Jerry's breeches:

Jerry's breeches are very nice and reasonably priced at less than $100 pair and they are quite durable. As you can see, the cut is a bit fuller than what you would normally see in original period (30s) breeches. These were brand new and had not been washed so they are a bit loose fitting. However, they do take on a tighter fit in the knee and the flare looks better when they have been washed in warm water and dried a couple of times since they do shrink a bit.

I have found surprisingly that onlooker comments have been very positive. Yes, they harken back to the golden era and many people (especially the guys) do prefer these to the modern 4-way stretch variant. As 50 or so members of the Lancers are concerned, we appear in public all the time 30s era breeches and everyone loves our uniforms. I believe your concerns are more to our own misgivings rather than what others see. Quite frankly, once you've worn them a few times, you'll not think twice about it. Go for it!

 

[just_me]

Draws do you wear the full breeches away from the other men who are also wearing them? That is, do wear them at a horse show or a non-reenactor facility? I would think that it's really comfortable to wear them around other people who are dressed in a similar fashion, but it could be more uncomfortable for someone to wear them in a situation where everyone else is wearing modern Tailored Sportsmens (or other popular breeches).

 

[draws]

Draws do you wear the full breeches away from the other men who are also wearing them? That is, do wear them at a horse show or a non-reenactor facility? I would think that it's really comfortable to wear them around other people who are dressed in a similar fashion, but it could be more uncomfortable for someone to wear them in a situation where everyone else is wearing modern Tailored Sportsmens (or other popular breeches).

just_me, to answer your question directly, all of the men (and women) of our troop wear the full breeches at all times in public and at the stables whenever called for and without hesitation. Yes, we do wear them wherever there is a demand for our presence and regardless of what other equestrian troops are wearing. None of us are uncomfortable at all. That is our uniform and everyone wears it proudly, whether it is our full dress Lancer (as seen on my avatar) or our Class A mounted uniform.

I have been wearing the vintage style of breeches since I started hunter/jumper training in the mid 60s, after I graduated from college. I really enjoy wearing them and am not at all uncomfortable wearing them regardess of where I am or who I'm with. Yes, I wore the vintage style at horse shows as well while others were wearing the new variety and it really didn't bother me nor did it really bother them. That's probably because I was winning and they weren't (just kidding) but it's sort of true. I really didn't care what they thought. My only concern was that the breeches were comfortable, that I was properly attired, that I was participating in something that not many other men participate in and not much more than that.

I also have WW1 vintage AEF uniforms of WWI and participate in displays and reenactments in full WWI doughboy infantry and cavalry uniform with others who have the same interests so that hasn't been a problem. What's interesting is that the public receive us with great enthusiasm for the time period being portrayed. Yes we get the looks but everyone seems to love it, especially us.

Our Lancer uniforms are similar in design to the RCMP and the public really love to have us attend their events and to see history reenacted. The public often mistake us for the RCMP. Please ask if you have any additional questions and thanks for asking.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

ArrowCollarMan,

The design of breeches is hundreds of years old during a time when the world was not mechanized and horse power was the norm. During the mid to late 1800s, the designs changed. The military had worn them full length (to the ankle) in Europe and non-military wore them to the knees with a belt or button fastener. A more general design change was to shorten the military variant to the ankle making the use of tall riding boots more comfortable and lengthening the non-military variant to be longer and more standard with the military version for the same reason. This change resulted in some discomfort for the rider in that it forced material in the seat and upper thigh area to stretch. Materials in those days were not very flexible which caused additional discomfort.

Additional changes were made to the seat and thigh areas to provide more room and comfort in the saddle as a result. MOre material was added to the thighs resulting in the peg or flare that you see in the early 20th century.

As new materials were developed, the need for the flare at the thighs was discontinued in favor of these new fabrics resulting in the tight fitting breeches that you see today.

I'm certain that there were other reasons for these changes but I have tried to describe the more obvious ones. I hope that this helps.

You've hit on something interesting. Before stretch material allowed for today's tight fitting breeches, the flare in the hip was to allow the extra material, that was needed because it didn't stretch. The flared or pegged breeches go back to the early 1900's.

Before that, even though there was no stretch material, the breeches didn't have the same pronounced flair. Think Civil War, and Indian War cavalry, for the mid-to-late 1800's. Previous to that, say the Napoleonic era. The cavalry wore breeches for full dress, and on campaign they wore "campaign trousers," a type of overalls, that had leather reinforcing on the inside of the leg, and fastened with buttons down the outside of the leg.

How were they able to accomplish the task without the flare, and without stretch material? Good tailoring?

 

[draws]

You've hit on something interesting. Before stretch material allowed for today's tight fitting breeches, the flare in the hip was to allow the extra material, that was needed because it didn't stretch. The flared or pegged breeches go back to the early 1900's.

Before that, even though there was no stretch material, the breeches didn't have the same pronounced flair. Think Civil War, and Indian War cavalry, for the mid-to-late 1800's. Previous to that, say the Napoleonic era. The cavalry wore breeches for full dress, and on campaign they wore "campaign trousers," a type of overalls, that had leather reinforcing on the inside of the leg, and fastened with buttons down the outside of the leg.

How were they able to accomplish the task without the flare, and without stretch material? Good tailoring?

Yes, that was the point I was making. I have noticed in many napoleanic cavalry photos that the rider did sit more deeply in the saddle with a very extended (long) leg. If one thinks about it, an extended (long) leg and more upright position lessened the need for flared breeches and more material in the seat. This could have been the case since the leg was not bent as it tended to be with the advent late 1800s and of the turn of the century military saddles where the leg has a more pronounced bend at the knee. This was true of the English and McClellan saddle design which forced the bend in the knee. Also, the British adopted and improved on the jodhpur design during their occupation of India in the 1800s. The conclusion: "If it works for us, it should work for everyone else".

This shows clearly in breech design for the US army during the Spanish American War where the pants were straight and worn with leggings. Cavalry during the Span Am war also had the straight leg pants with leggings. The influence of the British experience in India did have an impact on the design change as a result.

This shows up immediately following the Span Am and just prior to the Mexican Border action where the US adopted the british design. This can be seen in the expeditionary forces (cavalry) sent to the Southwest border who were now wearing flared breeches and leather puttees. Breeches were obviously well received by the cavalry. It would therefore make more sense to transition all military personnel to the flared breech in WW1. Breeches were now firmly entrenched from then through the late 40s early 50s when new materials appeared.

NOTE: There was a tendancy to transition to the straight leg pants after WW1 but the military still encouraged the use of breeches in the field through to the start of WWII especially cavalry personnel.

I do firmly believe that the flared and/or tranditional breeches design will re-appear again. This clearly shows with the increased number of vendors now doing business in the more vintage breech design. It seems that there is a resurgence of traditional flared breeches especially in the male riding community. For good reason, this trend may be slow in coming with the oposite sex with a few exceptions.

 

[just_me]

Thanks Draws. I think the vintage breeches look great. The last time I wore flared riding pants was jodhpurs in the early 1960s. I wear breeches (the modern style) every time I ride and I'm not sure I'd have the nerve to show up at the barn or especially to a show in vintage breeches. (Though I do wear rust breeches to school and show, which do make me stand out, as not many people wear rust since the 70s.)

Not vintage flared breeches, but rust (vintage 1970s) and Harvey.

 

[draws]

Thanks Draws. I think the vintage breeches look great. The last time I wore flared riding pants was jodhpurs in the early 1960s. I wear breeches (the modern style) every time I ride and I'm not sure I'd have the nerve to show up at the barn or especially to a show in vintage breeches. (Though I do wear rust breeches to school and show, which do make me stand out, as not many people wear rust since the 70s.)

Not vintage flared breeches, but rust (vintage 1970s) and Harvey.

Just Me. Great photo! I fully understand your being uncomfortable wearing the flared breeches. I always believed that we wear what makes us comfortable. However, If you really like them, get a pair and wear them for training to at least satisfy your own likes.

 

[Fredells]

I like the ones from Crockett and Jones.

Regards

 

[Baggers]

They're Here!

My jodhpur boots from What Price Glory arrived today and I can highly recommend them. Full leather soles with a great finish for less than 200 USD shipped. I ordered my normal size (12) and they fit a bit loosely due to his practice of only making wide widths. Nothing a thicker sock or an insole won't fix. I'm looking forward to wearing these into the ground.

Cheers!