Joan Collins says British women have given up trying to look good.

[Edward]

No but its completely unreasonable for the average person to look like that, she needs to get down off her hoity-toity perch and realise that people with real lives don't have the time or the money to spend on themselves that she has.

I'm just so sick of women criticising other women for their looks.

Isn't that the truth. I get around quite a lot online, and there especially I see the most hideous, hideous, misogyny from men. I've often been labelled something of a gender traitor for calling a few folks out on their attitude. To me, it says an enormous amount - all of it negative- about our contemporary culture that whereas the men most in the public conciousness tend to be Obama, or Gordon Brown, or whoever, the women most people are most concious of in the media / most interested in tend to be the likes of Angelina Jolie, or Victoria Beckham. It is still very much a man's world, which is why I find it so unacceptable, I suppose, when women facilitate this by playing along, attacking other women, and perpetuating misogynist institutions. Consider, for instance, the high numbers of young women who aspire to be 'Page 3 Girls', or the fact that the majority of Sun readers are female. Sickening.

Joan Collins, well..... to be honest - and maybe this is ironic coming from Lounge people, but - she always looks somehow stuck in the 80s to me. Maybe because that is the last time I can think of her having done anything particularly high profile? I'm sure she's been in other stuff since Dynasty, but.... [huh] Maybe she finds making this sort of statement helps her stay in the public conciousness? Remember, there's only one thing worse than being talked about....

As to whether she has a point.... well. Certainly, general dress standards have slipped in the last twenty years in my opinion. Women still make much more of an effort, in general, than do men. I don't believe for a minute that "British" women are any worse than any the world over - I can't claim to have noticed standards in London being any lower than those in Berlin, Copenhagen, Vienna, Belfast, Dublin, Glasgow, NYC, Boston, Beijing or Hong Kong, or anywhere else I've been lucky enough to pass through in recent years. I do think that you get a very different impression of a city whe you are there on holiday, and therefore spend more time around both other tourists and locals in their casual time, rather than work dress... but in all of those cities, each of which I have visited in a work capcity, I have seen sufficient to be able to compare with equivalent situations in the UK. We live in a global village; some things are universal.

It's sadly funny how women can't seem to win, isn't it? Men can get fat and bald and old and have relatively few issues with it, while the female of the species is expected to simultaneously be ageless & beautiful, as well as "act her age."

Actually, I find this changing in recent years. While true equality in the workplace is still a way off (I am aware that there are many places in the City that would still prefer to hire a man, the attitude being that "a woman of child bearing age will only want ot have years off, and we'll have to pay maternity leave and all this - a man we'll get more work and more loyalty out of"; similarly, there still exists a pay gap), it seems to me that things are evening up a touch. Unlike thirty years ago or more, women now are much more likely to be solvent in themselves, have their own money, and be living independently into their early thirties; they are not dependent upon a man to "look after" them, and so whereas once the elements that made a man attractive might have been financial security, dependibility, social influence or whatever, things like looks are becoming increasingly important. One reason for a rise (my perception) in misogyny among men: women are starting to hold more of the cards, and the men don't like it even though it is exactly the same way they ant to treat women.

Is there any chance that someone can come up with something a bit more judgemental, and offensive here?

Let's not forget that there are countless people working for nothing in the UK, for all the hours god sends, there are thousands of families waiting for housing in London, and that most folk are just about managing to keep their heads above water financially at the moment.

There are more important issues at stake than whether or not someone has remembered to polish their shoes before they leave the house.

Besides if there is a problem with modern day British women it is predominantly obesity, not dress code.

Yes, it can be very easy to judge a book by its cover, losing sight of the fact that many of necessity have very different priorities. It is possible to make something of an effort on any budget, of course - in part, this is to do with the obvious effort, or lack thereof, in the presentation - BUT yes, it certainly behoves those of us who would judge another on appearance alone to step back and take a second thought.

 

[Brummagem Joe]

Joan Collins, well..... to be honest - and maybe this is ironic coming from Lounge people, but - she always looks somehow stuck in the 80s to me. Maybe because that is the last time I can think of her having done anything particularly high profile? I'm sure she's been in other stuff since Dynasty, but.... [huh] Maybe she finds making this sort of statement helps her stay in the public conciousness? Remember, there's only one thing worse than being talked about....

As to whether she has a point.... well. Certainly, general dress standards have slipped in the last twenty years in my opinion. Women still make much more of an effort, in general, than do men. I don't believe for a minute that "British" women are any worse than any the world over - I can't claim to have noticed standards in London being any lower than those in Berlin, Copenhagen, Vienna, Belfast, Dublin, Glasgow, NYC, Boston, Beijing or Hong Kong, or anywhere else I've been lucky enough to pass through in recent years. I do think that you get a very different impression of a city whe you are there on holiday, and therefore spend more time around both other tourists and locals in their casual time, rather than work dress...



........Women certainly make a far greater effort generally than men but I fear we will have to agree to disagree about women's overall appearance in different cities......in the past year I've visited the major cities of LA, Chicago, NY, London, Paris, Milan, Florence, Rome and Munich and as a generalisation, and after all that's what we're talking about a general impression, I'd say London came out worst in that well over half of the women looked a bit dowdy to downright awful whereas the proportions were reversed in all other cities......actually in NYC and Milan I'd say 75% of the women looked knockout. Sorry if this gives the impression I spend a lot of time looking at women. There's nothing very new about this. A few months back I was reading Cecil Beaton's diaries from the seventies and he was commenting on the general dowdiness of British women relative to those in Europe and the USA

.........Interesting you should mention Joanie as an 80's figure......you're probably right to some extent.....I remember seeing her at Ascot in 1986 I think when she'd have been in her early 50's and she looked pretty good I can tell you........she's become one of those people who are famous for being famous..... whatever her motives she's basically correct I believe

 

[BellyTank]

And your point ???

It is called a sense of humor.....post number 6

None of each.


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[AllaboutEve]

"I'd say London came out worst in that well over half of the women looked a bit dowdy to downright awful whereas the proportions were reversed in all other cities......actually in NYC and Milan I'd say 75% of the women looked knockout. Sorry if this gives the impression I spend a lot of time looking at women. There's nothing very new about this. A few months back I was reading Cecil Beaton's diaries from the seventies and he was commenting on the general dowdiness of British women relative to those in Europe and the USA"


Thanks, that's just charming.

 

[Medvssa]

Funny how long we've been on the road to ruin! I can imagine a 76-year-old in 1946, looking at these lovely ladies:

and saying the same thing. They look so neat and well-put-together to us, but you can see their legs clear up to the knee, and just one or two layers of light fabric covers the rest of them... quite a problem, if you were raised wearing this:

I don't think we're in for an apocalypse quite yet. And fortunately, how other people dress doesn't interfere with my own clothing choices in the least, that's why I learned how to sew!

Apocalypse is always round the corner isn't it?
This is an excellent point that has been completely ignored [huh] (I shoudn't be surprised, considering the tone of many of the posts in here...)

I personally think that other people's dress standards are none of my business.

 

[LaMedicine]

Apocalypse is always round the corner isn't it?
This is an excellent point that has been completely ignored [huh] (I shoudn't be surprised, considering the tone of many of the posts in here...)

I personally think that other people's dress standards are none of my business.

I completely agree.
What I once read about the evolution of fashion.
1) It evolves slowly.
2) Casual clothes evolves into formal clothes.
3) Inner clothes evolves into outer clothes.
Although 1) seems to be moving faster these days, 2) and 3) are so very true. Besides, commercialism has more impact these days, rather than innovating and improving due to the needs of daily life, for what it's worth.

 

[kamikat]

I think Joan is beautiful! In fact, in this picture, both ladies are beautiful. I think Joan has a point. While I have never been to England, the same thing can be said of American women. The concept of "slummy mummy" is alive and well in suburban US. The fact that she is 75 years old means she remembers when ladies dressed. I remember when ladies dressed and I'm only in my 30s. I'm sure many of us remember our grandmother and great-aunties who dressed, well into their 70s. Both my grandmother and great aunt wore suits everyday of their lives and would never have left the house without their pearls. Today's older ladies tend to wear track suits or worse, matching outfits to their husbands. Around the schools, most moms wear jeans, t-shirts and running shoes. Even one who wears a nicer shoe with her jeans is looked at with jealously or suspicion.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I think Joan is beautiful! In fact, in this picture, both ladies are beautiful. I think Joan has a point. The concept of "slummy mummy" is alive and well in suburban US. The fact that she is 75 years old means she remembers when ladies dressed. I'm sure many of us remember our grandmother and great-aunties who dressed, well into their 70s. Even one who wears a nicer shoe with her jeans is looked at with jealously or suspicion.

Excellent point. Working with what you have and accentuating those qualities is not bound by age or budget. It also starts from within; inner beauty always shines regardless of how much plastic surgery or how expensive and stylish an outfit is.

 

[Brummagem Joe]

"I'd say London came out worst in that well over half of the women looked a bit dowdy to downright awful whereas the proportions were reversed in all other cities......actually in NYC and Milan I'd say 75% of the women looked knockout. Sorry if this gives the impression I spend a lot of time looking at women. There's nothing very new about this. A few months back I was reading Cecil Beaton's diaries from the seventies and he was commenting on the general dowdiness of British women relative to those in Europe and the USA"


Thanks, that's just charming.

......I'm married to an English woman so I have no animus against them....quite the contrary they have many wonderful qualities not the least of which is commonsense.....but I'm afraid when it comes to the fashion stakes in general terms (there are always lots of exceptions to any rule) they don't really come out top......believe me I wish it was otherwise......if it's any consolation British men have declined dramatically in the last 40 years too.....I can remember London in the sixties and most men were fairly well dressed and exceptionally dressed men were quite common....In those days the brokers on the stock exchange still used to wear silk hats

 

[Miss Neecerie]

......I'm married to an English woman so I have no animus against them....quite the contrary they have many wonderful qualities not the least of which is commonsense.....but I'm afraid when it comes to the fashion stakes in general terms (there are always lots of exceptions to any rule) they don't really come out top......believe me I wish it was otherwise......if it's any consolation British men have declined dramatically in the last 40 years too.....I can remember London in the sixties and most men were fairly well dressed and exceptionally dressed men were quite common....In those days the brokers on the stock exchange still used to wear silk hats

You might want to stop while you are still not so deep in the hole...that the ladies borrow your obviously working shovel to toss dirt and cover you right up.

 

[Brummagem Joe]

You might want to stop while you are still not so deep in the hole...that the ladies borrow your obviously working shovel to toss dirt and cover you right up.

........I tell it as it is with all it's nuances

 

[Miss Neecerie]

........I tell it as it is with all it's nuances

I am sure it makes you quite the popular bloke.

 

[Brummagem Joe]

I am sure it makes you quite the popular bloke.

.......Opinions are mixed I find........some women believe it or not actually like an honest opinion on matters of dress and appearance even if they don't always agree with you

 

[LizzieMaine]

It is still very much a man's world, which is why I find it so unacceptable, I suppose, when women facilitate this by playing along, attacking other women, and perpetuating misogynist institutions. Consider, for instance, the high numbers of young women who aspire to be 'Page 3 Girls', or the fact that the majority of Sun readers are female. Sickening.

You ought to read, if you haven't already, Ariel Levy's writings on "raunch culture" and its real impact on women. Puts a lot of these issues right smack into focus.

As far as the whole fashion end of things goes, I think it's perfectly possible to question the overall aesthetic of a style without attacking the person wearing it. To suggest that a baggy sweatshirt hanging over a pair of ill-fitting pants makes the wearer look short and stumpy is simply an empirical observation, without making any sort of moral or emotional judgement against the person wearing it. And, let's be honest, we *all* make those observations, even the most "let's all get along" of us. Anyone who claims not to is, frankly, full of it. The problem is when we start thinking -- and worse, saying out loud -- "that person is beneath me because she's wearing a baggy sweatshirt and poorly fitting jeans." My closest friend is a habitual wearer of baggy sweats and jeans, and I'd choose her company any day in the week over some of the well-groomed, flawlessly-elegant backstabbers I've met in my life.

 

[BellyTank]

You might want to stop while you are still not so deep in the hole...that the ladies borrow your obviously working shovel to toss dirt and cover you right up.

Thank you-
But be kind... he can remember the '60s.


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[Marc Chevalier]

"It's sadly funny how women can't seem to win, isn't it? Men can get fat and bald and old and have relatively few issues with it, while the female of the species is expected to simultaneously be ageless & beautiful, as well as "act her age."

A man can get fat and bald and old and have relatively few issues with it -- as long as he's not poor. A woman who seems "ageless & beautiful" will be desired -- even if she is poor. Life is full of trade-offs.

.

 

[Foofoogal]

The fact that she is 75 years old means she remembers when ladies dressed.

I think this is all Joan was basically trying to say.

as long as he's not poor. A woman who seems "ageless & beautiful" will be desired -- even if she is poor.

truth for sure.

 

[kampkatz]

Joan Collins is still a classy lady and simply speaks her mind about the total lack of common sense in today's fashion.

 

[BellyTank]

Was she ever "classy"?


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[C-dot]

As far as the whole fashion end of things goes, I think it's perfectly possible to question the overall aesthetic of a style without attacking the person wearing it. To suggest that a baggy sweatshirt hanging over a pair of ill-fitting pants makes the wearer look short and stumpy is simply an empirical observation, without making any sort of moral or emotional judgement against the person wearing it. And, let's be honest, we *all* make those observations, even the most "let's all get along" of us. Anyone who claims not to is, frankly, full of it. The problem is when we start thinking -- and worse, saying out loud -- "that person is beneath me because she's wearing a baggy sweatshirt and poorly fitting jeans."

Well said. Human as we are, we make these judgments of strangers simply because we have nothing else to judge them on. If we got to know them, we'd most likely find that clothes don't always make the man... Or woman!

As for Joan, the retouching and plastic surgery makes her look like an alien. I think there is a fine like between defying age, and waging a holy war on it - and a losing one, at that!