Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes suit

[Rigel7]

Hello all,
I was wondering if some of you could help me. I'm currently in Korea where there are many affordable and quality tailors. I am planning on having a suit like Jeremy Brett's Sherlock Holmes suit made, the black suit he typically wore in the stories set in London. The trouble I'm having is I'm not sure how to describe the jacket to my tailor, or the type of of lapels used on it and the waistcoat. Can anyone offer some assistance? Thanks.

 

[Feraud]

Your best bet is to provide the tailor with a lot of photographs.
Keep us in the loop on this project.

 

[dhermann1]

It would be called a frock coat, wouldn't it? Isn't that the classic Victorian era man's suit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frock_coat
http://www.gentlemansemporium.com/store/coats.php
http://www.lafnmoon.com/frock_coat.html

 

[Lokar]

Yes, Brett wore a frock coat (without satin faced lapels). Body coats are amongst the hardest items to tailor correctly - good luck!

 

[nihil]

Instead of starting a new tread on the same subject, I'll revive this one.

I'm looking into acquiring a late Victorian frock coat. The specific style I've taken a fancy to, is the one worn by Jeremy Brett in the wonderful Granada series.
However, I do not know where I can get such a coat, at a reasonable price? An alternative is to acquire a pattern and make it myself, or by a skilled friend. but then I'm in the need of good patterns (and not some of those too numerous costume-quality patterns the net is flooded with)

 

[Baron Kurtz]

eBay.de

 

[Gin&Tonics]

Mr. Brett wore a 3 piece black frock suit, single breasted, with self faced (not satin) notch lapels, I believe it was a 2 button. Early in the series, his waistcoat had notch lapels, whereas later on he wore a waistcoat without lapels. I believe both waistcoats were 2 pocket. I'm not sure of the treatment of his pants hem, though I feel as though they were sans cuffs. If you do a google search of Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes you'll come up with plenty of reference photos.

Also, if you're really going for the full look, he wore a batswing bowtie with the bows tucked under a point collar. I may do a search and add some photos to this post, just because Brett Holmes is awesome.

 

[nihil]

I tried ebay.de, but unfortunately it seems that there are none in my size (US 40L or EU 102).

Gin&Tonics> Am I right in my observation that his frock coat and waistcoat were both black and the trousers grey with pinstripes? I'm not entirely sure he actually wore a batswing bow tie, as from some angles it merely looks like a slightly narrower regular bow tie?
I've done a fair amount of picture search myself, but perhaps you got some that I haven't seen before. I would appreciate if you could post them here anyway.

 

[Gin&Tonics]

I tried ebay.de, but unfortunately it seems that there are none in my size (US 40L or EU 102).

Gin&Tonics> Am I right in my observation that his frock coat and waistcoat were both black and the trousers grey with pinstripes? I'm not entirely sure he actually wore a batswing bow tie, as from some angles it merely looks like a slightly narrower regular bow tie?
I've done a fair amount of picture search myself, but perhaps you got some that I haven't seen before. I would appreciate if you could post them here anyway.

It seems that in some episodes it was a 3 piece frock suit, while in others he wore striped charcoal trousers. Either would be very appropriate and very Victorian. The bowtie has a fairly small knot and slim 'wings' or bows, for lack of a better term. It is possible that it's a plain bowtie; the key is tucking the bows under the collar.

Let me see what I can come up with; many of the shots online don't include the trousers, however I have the entire series on my computer, so I can probably get some nice screencaps....stand by.

I must amend my previous comment regarding Holmes' tie; it is definitely a cutaway (spread) collar, but precisely what type of bowtie is up for debate. My comment regarding the earlier vs later episodes seems to play out. Consider the following:

This shot is from the first season, final episode "The Final Problem". Here, he's wearing the charcoal pinstripe trousers, black wool waistcoat with satin trim and a notch lapel, very high button stance, and a black frock coat. I also amend my previous comment regarding the coat; it is definitely a peak lapel with rope shoulders, not a notch lapel.

This next set of images is from a later set of episodes where it appears he is wearing a 3 piece frock suit with no lapels on the waistcoat:

You can see in the image above he has 3 buttons on his coat sleeves. Please excuse the lack of clarity, the resolution on the episodes I have is not the best.

This one is the best I could come across showing the full back of the coat. Note the two fabric covered buttons at the waistline where the coat is gathered. This is classic frock coat design.

Closeup showing the lapels and waistcoat buttons as well as the cutaway collar and bowtie.

This image seems to show fairly well that his trousers are matching cloth to his waistcoat and frock. They do not appear to be striped as in the earlier shot.

Hope that helps as a starting point!

 

[nihil]

Excellent! Thank you VERY much!

It cleared up the detailing on both waistcoat and frock coat a great deal.

Is the shirt period accurate? It looks to me if the buttons on the shirt is not hidden, and it's possible to see a single mother of pearl button just below his bow tie?

My only real puzzlement right now, is whether his suit is really black or a dark charcoal? But I believe I've read somewhere that frock coats were almost exclusively black, and that would match his frock coat and waistcoat to both be black. Perhaps black, back then, hadn't the same associations that it got today?

 

[Shangas]

I reckon that the coat (and the suit) is black.

Don't forget that Victorian London was an INCREDIBLY dirty place to live. Even in the 1880s and 1890s when the Holmes stories took place, you had the soot from millions of fireplaces, chimneys, factories, steamboats, the smoke from ovens, steam-trains, stoves, cigarettes and pipes. Not to mention candles and oil-lamps.

Add to this the fact that London was world-famous for its extremely heavy fogs, especially in winter. The fogs were not just low cloud, it was the smoke and ash and fumes from all the fireplaces and factories.

It's not as evident these days, but in Victorian times, London weather could be freezing in winter. So wearing a three-piece frock-suit was not just to cover up your shirt (seen as an undergarment), but was also necessary to keep warm. Modern central heating was a luxury back then. If you didn't have a fireplace in winter, you'd freeze.

Clothes were of necessity, dark in colour, so that they didn't show the soot. You wouldn't wear your best ivory-linen suit in the middle of the Square Mile. You'd wear black or dark grey.

Shirts in Victorian times, as I already explained to you previously Nihil, were seen as underwear. They would've been changed very infrequently. Cuffs and collars were detatchable to facilitate regular rotation, but the shirt itself would've been worn for days or weeks on end. A lot of things were detachable. I believe shirt-studs were among this, but I'm not sure if that just applied to formal dress-shirts, or to everyday undershirts.

 

[nihil]

Yes, quite so. Good point about the contemporary environment.

Am I correct in my observation that many Victorian shirts had a gap in the middle of the collar? Or at least, that Brett's shirt does?
Similar to this:

 

[Gin&Tonics]

Excellent! Thank you VERY much!

It cleared up the detailing on both waistcoat and frock coat a great deal.

Is the shirt period accurate?

I don't have the expertise to say for certain, but I can tell you that Mr. Brett extensively researched the Canon as well as the Victorian age in general in preparation for playing Holmes, and he insisted that everything be as authentic as possible, so my money is on it being legit.

 

[Shangas]

Brett was indeed a stickler for detail. He insisted that everything be as 100%-accurate as it was possible to be. He wanted to record the ENTIRE canon in the TV show, but as we all know, his health and unfortunate personal issues caught up with him before he was able to finish. The deterioration of his physical state is extremely obvious when you compare the earlier episodes with later ones, such as "The Dying Detective" and "The Cardboard Box", during which he was so sick he could barely continue filming.

 

[Oldsarge]

His loss was a great one to both the Holmes' oeuvre and to literate television in general. The definitive Sherlock of his era . . . and those that follow. RIP, Jeremy, you were the artist's artist.

 

[nihil]

He was indeed superb in his performance. I personally compare him to Sherlock Holmes, as what to David Suchet is to Poriot.
We are very fortunate that there are persons both capable of, and willing to, master such iconic roles in a way that are fitting.


Does anyone know where it's possible to acquire a reasonable quality frock coat? Gentleman's Emporium is polyester based, and sutlers.co.uk doesn't look like it's a very good cut (the models on their website is wearing some badly fitting clothes, and if they cant get THAT right, I have zero confidence they can make something well fitting to order)

 

[nihil]

I came across this on an auction site. Allegedly it have been worn by Brett in the Granada series. It doesn't look like the ones he wear in the early seasons?

 

[MisterCairo]

http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/holmes-frock-coat-overcoats-p-352.html

http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/davison-frock-coat-overcoats-p-445.html

http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/victorian-frock-coat-overcoats-p-388.html

http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/baker-frock-coat-overcoats-p-396.html

 

[Gin&Tonics]

... Gentleman's Emporium is polyester based, ...

Actually, Gentleman's Emporium does have some 100% wool frock coats, including a Victorian morning/cutaway coat. I agree that you should steer clear of the polyester, but you may find that the 100% wool ones suit you fine.

Someone included a link in another thread about frock coats to an online maker where you can order them made-to-measure; at least from the photos, the product looked pretty decent. If I come across that thread again, I'll post the link in this post.

 

[nihil]

My apologies, I didn't reveal my other problem with Gentleman's Emporium; I'm both very tall and slightly athletic of build, therefore no 'regular' sizes fit me.

Could the other store you mention be Sutlers? I've been looking at their Frock Coats and they look quite good. The price is very reasonable as well. I've sent them a few questions regarding their product. It'll be interesting to see if this could be it